Posted by: Shawn (bellshw2@aol.com) on Wed Aug 8 13:18:56 2001

Hi All
>
> Below is an e-mail exchange I had with Mark Smith, head coach of
Canada's Men's National Fastpitch Softball Team. There are coaches
that come to the site that are more qualified to discuss fastpitch
hitting than I am. I thought I would post our remarks (with Mark?s ok)
for others who may like to join the discussion.
>
> Jack Mankin
>
> >>> My name is Mark Smith and I am the head coach of Canada's Men's
National Fastpitch Softball Team. I have read some of the information
on your site and certainly agree with many points. Successful hitters
have many things in common, including sound mechanics, however the
information on your site tends to address baseball hitters moreso than
softball hitters. In fastpitch softball the swing plane is be "down
and through" the hitting zone, much like the swings of a Paul Molitor,
George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro Suzuki of
Seattle. In my opinion those men were pure hitters, athletes able to
use the same swing in either sport. Most major league hitters would
make a living in fastpitch softball because the swing is shorter and
more compact, plus the rise ball would dominate them initially. I
realize men's fastpitch softball is a fairly low profile sport, but I
can tell you that in the United States, most fastpitch players are
former baseball players, some with double AA and tripple A experience
who for whatever reason couldn't make it to the "show".
>
> I think your site offers a great perspective on hitting and gives
the avid hitter or coach "food for thought", but I would suggest that
fastpitch softball at the world class level employs a slightly
different swing path and can be more handsy or wristy if you like give
the short pitching distance (46ft) and the importance of having a
short compact stroke.
>
> I'd love to critique your video and see what over comments I could
offer from the men's game. Thanks for your time.<<<
>
> Hi Mark
>
> Thank you for your interest in the site, and its' material. -- Mark,
I would have to take exception with your statement, "the swings of a
Paul Molitor, George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro
Suzuki of Seattle," have a "down and through" swing plane. I would
agree that their swing plane may be more level in the zone than most
of the power hitters. But even their planes have leveled out and are
on a slight up-slope at contact.
>
> By the way, studying the swing of George Brett is when I discovered
the mechanic I call top-hand-torque. With it, he was not only capable
of hitting for a high average he was also able to hit with real power.
Plus, his swing time from initiation to contact was shorter than Tony
Gwynn or Rod Carew.
>
> I know that most coaches, especially fastpitch coaches, think the
quickest way to get the bat-head to the ball is with "quick extension
of the hands" type of mechanics. That is just not true. Hitters like
Bonds and A-Rod who keep the hands back and allow shoulder rotation
(with top-hand-torque) to bring the hands to the zone, they get the
bat-head to the ball in 4 to 4-1/2 video frames after initiation. The
players who use their arms and drive the top-hand forward at
initiation take 5 to 5-1/2 frames and the hands travel 6 to 10 inches
farther to make contact. Sticking with the "quick hands" mechanics,
instead of using the larger muscle-groups of the body, has caused many
hitters, baseball and softball, to use lighter and lighter bats with
progressively weaker driving substance.
>
> Mark, ask yourself this question. -- If the lower release point of
the softball pitcher would make a good baseball swing ineffective, say
Barry Bonds, --- why is major league baseball not filled with
submarine type pitchers? They have a release point that is 10 to 12
inches lower than fastpitch yet they do not prove to be that effective
against the better hitters.
>
> PS: This would be a good topic for the discussion board. Would you
mind if I posted it?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jack Mankin
>
> ##
>
> ? Hi Jack,
>
> Thanks for the prompt reply. Let me say first that I have not
researched hitting to the extent that you have, my 20 plus years of
experience comes from being a world-class softball pitcher and hitter
and studying the great hitters of both sports to see what they did to
be so successful. I thought a bit about your comments and would like
to offer my two cents worth if you don't mind.
>
> You said that Brett got the barrel to the hitting zone quicker than
Carew or Gwynn and that brings to mind two pisibilities: 1. He started
with his hands close to his natural launch position which allowed him
to be quicker to the contact zone or 2. he tended to hit the ball more
out in front. Both Gwynn and Carew by their own admission waited
longer on the pitch before commiting to swing, this may allow for the
longer extra frames to contact or they took slightly longer to get to
their natural launch positions before initiating their swings.
>
> I find Barry Bond's comment about submarine pitching interesting. in
1982 I was invited to the Kansas City Royal's spring training as an
expirement of sorts. As a fastpitch pitcher I was clocked at 109 mph
underhand from 46 feet at the 81 ISC World Tournament, in the fall of
81 I was contact by a Royals scout and asked if I'd be interested in
attending spring training at their expense. Trying to throw a 9 inch
baseball from 60ft 6 inches with an under hand motion minus the full
whip is very difficult and it stands to reason that there were few Dan
Quisenberry's or Kent Tulkelve's in baseball. It was far to labouring
on the arm from that distance, in fact I threw harder coming over the
top in the conventional way most baseball pitchers throw.
>
> Bonds starts with his hands low which makes hitting to ball mid
thigh and down easier for him. In the past few weeks when his home run
tear has subsided, he's missing pitches (popping them up) up in the
zone. If he carried his hands higher and leveled off his swing he'd be
even more dangerous than he is.
>
> You commented that the hitters I mentioned have more level swings
but slight uppercut near the finish and I would agree, but their path
to the ball appears initially downward. Even in softball using a down
and through swing path creates a slightly upward follow through, but
that's after contact. The path to the ball is on a downward plane.
>
> More and more in major league baseball I see the softball swing
being employed. Driving the ball usually means staying on top of the
pitch and to do that you have to create a downward swing path. the
monsters like Sosa and MacGuire will survive because in baseball every
pitch breaks down and most pitchers aren't strike out pitchers, they
rely on ground balls. But when you see the late inning closers come in
with the 95 mile per hour heater, you don't often see even the guys
with the upper cut swings driving the fastball up in the zone.
>
> we could debate this for hours Jack and I really appreciate your
taking the time to reply. If you'd like to post my thoughts, thats
great and I thank you for your time.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Mark Smith
>
>

Jack, Mark,

I enjoyed both comments. Mark has some great insight in fastpitch and
baseball.

High hands and swinging down, vs the hands staying at or below the
shoulders (in the plane of the shoulders). There are many different
hitters in both games.

There are hitters that can start with hands above the shoulder, and
then slot the back elbow rather sharply. Some hitters can even keep
the hands high at initiation (the back elbow slot is about mid-torso,
vs. waist line). Their arc flattens much later, initiation to contact,
or the barrel drops sharply into the plane of the shoulders. Usually
these hitters have their axis slighlty forward.

Taking Alex as an example, Alex believes in keeping the hands above
the ball, working slightly down. His swing plane has a bigger 'dip' on
the low stuff. Much flatter on the high stuff. Very typical approach
in fastpitch.

This really can be discussed 'forever'. If your bent on hitting the
high heat, or hitting the low heat, it will affect your approach.
Trying to get a low ball hitter to hit some high heat can be like
banging your head against the wall and vice versa.

Taking another approach besides the many different hitters in the
game, is swing planes. Are they the same for both sports, YES. It
doesn't matter where the ball started from. Hitting a ball solid in
space (barrel and ball in the same space at the same time) is the same
for both. With that I will post a clip, I was planning on posting this
for some lively discussion.

Two hitters with the same mechanics, same approach, close to the same
posture etc., (very close mechanics), one plays baseball and one plays
fastpitch, both have some power (HR'S on both swings). One starts with
the hands 'high' the other keeps the hands in the shoulder plane
always. The fastpitch hitter has to 'drop' the barrel farther than the
baseball hitter (swing down). The baseball hitter keeps the barrel
posture matching and tilts (adjusts) the upperbody (lead arm), doesn't
drop the barrel as far (or doesn't swing down). The pitch location is
close to the same, only one pitch starts low to high, one starts high
to low.

Hopefully everyone can see both swings well enough, and the barrel and
the hands. The orginal video wasn't great, and the distance from the
hitter doesn't help.

http://www.geocities.com/leebell1970/bbandfp.html

Enjoy, And I hope Jack and Mark will make some comments on both swings.

Shawn