Posted by: Joe A. () on Wed Aug 15 06:44:21 2001

Hi All
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Below is an e-mail exchange I had with Mark Smith, head coach of
> > > > > > > > > Canada's Men's National Fastpitch Softball Team. There are coaches
> > > > > > > > > that come to the site that are more qualified to discuss fastpitch
> > > > > > > > > hitting than I am. I thought I would post our remarks (with Mark?s ok)
> > > > > > > > > for others who may like to join the discussion.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >>> My name is Mark Smith and I am the head coach of Canada's Men's
> > > > > > > > > National Fastpitch Softball Team. I have read some of the information
> > > > > > > > > on your site and certainly agree with many points. Successful hitters
> > > > > > > > > have many things in common, including sound mechanics, however the
> > > > > > > > > information on your site tends to address baseball hitters moreso than
> > > > > > > > > softball hitters. In fastpitch softball the swing plane is be "down
> > > > > > > > > and through" the hitting zone, much like the swings of a Paul Molitor,
> > > > > > > > > George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro Suzuki of
> > > > > > > > > Seattle. In my opinion those men were pure hitters, athletes able to
> > > > > > > > > use the same swing in either sport. Most major league hitters would
> > > > > > > > > make a living in fastpitch softball because the swing is shorter and
> > > > > > > > > more compact, plus the rise ball would dominate them initially. I
> > > > > > > > > realize men's fastpitch softball is a fairly low profile sport, but I
> > > > > > > > > can tell you that in the United States, most fastpitch players are
> > > > > > > > > former baseball players, some with double AA and tripple A experience
> > > > > > > > > who for whatever reason couldn't make it to the "show".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think your site offers a great perspective on hitting and gives
> > > > > > > > > the avid hitter or coach "food for thought", but I would suggest that
> > > > > > > > > fastpitch softball at the world class level employs a slightly
> > > > > > > > > different swing path and can be more handsy or wristy if you like give
> > > > > > > > > the short pitching distance (46ft) and the importance of having a
> > > > > > > > > short compact stroke.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'd love to critique your video and see what over comments I could
> > > > > > > > > offer from the men's game. Thanks for your time.<<<
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Mark
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your interest in the site, and its' material. -- Mark,
> > > > > > > > > I would have to take exception with your statement, "the swings of a
> > > > > > > > > Paul Molitor, George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro
> > > > > > > > > Suzuki of Seattle," have a "down and through" swing plane. I would
> > > > > > > > > agree that their swing plane may be more level in the zone than most
> > > > > > > > > of the power hitters. But even their planes have leveled out and are
> > > > > > > > > on a slight up-slope at contact.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > By the way, studying the swing of George Brett is when I discovered
> > > > > > > > > the mechanic I call top-hand-torque. With it, he was not only capable
> > > > > > > > > of hitting for a high average he was also able to hit with real power.
> > > > > > > > > Plus, his swing time from initiation to contact was shorter than Tony
> > > > > > > > > Gwynn or Rod Carew.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I know that most coaches, especially fastpitch coaches, think the
> > > > > > > > > quickest way to get the bat-head to the ball is with "quick extension
> > > > > > > > > of the hands" type of mechanics. That is just not true. Hitters like
> > > > > > > > > Bonds and A-Rod who keep the hands back and allow shoulder rotation
> > > > > > > > > (with top-hand-torque) to bring the hands to the zone, they get the
> > > > > > > > > bat-head to the ball in 4 to 4-1/2 video frames after initiation. The
> > > > > > > > > players who use their arms and drive the top-hand forward at
> > > > > > > > > initiation take 5 to 5-1/2 frames and the hands travel 6 to 10 inches
> > > > > > > > > farther to make contact. Sticking with the "quick hands" mechanics,
> > > > > > > > > instead of using the larger muscle-groups of the body, has caused many
> > > > > > > > > hitters, baseball and softball, to use lighter and lighter bats with
> > > > > > > > > progressively weaker driving substance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mark, ask yourself this question. -- If the lower release point of
> > > > > > > > > the softball pitcher would make a good baseball swing ineffective, say
> > > > > > > > > Barry Bonds, --- why is major league baseball not filled with
> > > > > > > > > submarine type pitchers? They have a release point that is 10 to 12
> > > > > > > > > inches lower than fastpitch yet they do not prove to be that effective
> > > > > > > > > against the better hitters.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PS: This would be a good topic for the discussion board. Would you
> > > > > > > > > mind if I posted it?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ##
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ? Hi Jack,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the prompt reply. Let me say first that I have not
> > > > > > > > > researched hitting to the extent that you have, my 20 plus years of
> > > > > > > > > experience comes from being a world-class softball pitcher and hitter
> > > > > > > > > and studying the great hitters of both sports to see what they did to
> > > > > > > > > be so successful. I thought a bit about your comments and would like
> > > > > > > > > to offer my two cents worth if you don't mind.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You said that Brett got the barrel to the hitting zone quicker than
> > > > > > > > > Carew or Gwynn and that brings to mind two pisibilities: 1. He started
> > > > > > > > > with his hands close to his natural launch position which allowed him
> > > > > > > > > to be quicker to the contact zone or 2. he tended to hit the ball more
> > > > > > > > > out in front. Both Gwynn and Carew by their own admission waited
> > > > > > > > > longer on the pitch before commiting to swing, this may allow for the
> > > > > > > > > longer extra frames to contact or they took slightly longer to get to
> > > > > > > > > their natural launch positions before initiating their swings.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I find Barry Bond's comment about submarine pitching interesting. in
> > > > > > > > > 1982 I was invited to the Kansas City Royal's spring training as an
> > > > > > > > > expirement of sorts. As a fastpitch pitcher I was clocked at 109 mph
> > > > > > > > > underhand from 46 feet at the 81 ISC World Tournament, in the fall of
> > > > > > > > > 81 I was contact by a Royals scout and asked if I'd be interested in
> > > > > > > > > attending spring training at their expense. Trying to throw a 9 inch
> > > > > > > > > baseball from 60ft 6 inches with an under hand motion minus the full
> > > > > > > > > whip is very difficult and it stands to reason that there were few Dan
> > > > > > > > > Quisenberry's or Kent Tulkelve's in baseball. It was far to labouring
> > > > > > > > > on the arm from that distance, in fact I threw harder coming over the
> > > > > > > > > top in the conventional way most baseball pitchers throw.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bonds starts with his hands low which makes hitting to ball mid
> > > > > > > > > thigh and down easier for him. In the past few weeks when his home run
> > > > > > > > > tear has subsided, he's missing pitches (popping them up) up in the
> > > > > > > > > zone. If he carried his hands higher and leveled off his swing he'd be
> > > > > > > > > even more dangerous than he is.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You commented that the hitters I mentioned have more level swings
> > > > > > > > > but slight uppercut near the finish and I would agree, but their path
> > > > > > > > > to the ball appears initially downward. Even in softball using a down
> > > > > > > > > and through swing path creates a slightly upward follow through, but
> > > > > > > > > that's after contact. The path to the ball is on a downward plane.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > More and more in major league baseball I see the softball swing
> > > > > > > > > being employed. Driving the ball usually means staying on top of the
> > > > > > > > > pitch and to do that you have to create a downward swing path. the
> > > > > > > > > monsters like Sosa and MacGuire will survive because in baseball every
> > > > > > > > > pitch breaks down and most pitchers aren't strike out pitchers, they
> > > > > > > > > rely on ground balls. But when you see the late inning closers come in
> > > > > > > > > with the 95 mile per hour heater, you don't often see even the guys
> > > > > > > > > with the upper cut swings driving the fastball up in the zone.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we could debate this for hours Jack and I really appreciate your
> > > > > > > > > taking the time to reply. If you'd like to post my thoughts, thats
> > > > > > > > > great and I thank you for your time.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mark Smith
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jack, Mark,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I enjoyed both comments. Mark has some great insight in fastpitch and
> > > > > > > > > baseball.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > High hands and swinging down, vs the hands staying at or below the
> > > > > > > > > shoulders (in the plane of the shoulders). There are many different
> > > > > > > > > hitters in both games.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are hitters that can start with hands above the shoulder, and
> > > > > > > > > then slot the back elbow rather sharply. Some hitters can even keep
> > > > > > > > > the hands high at initiation (the back elbow slot is about mid-torso,
> > > > > > > > > vs. waist line). Their arc flattens much later, initiation to contact,
> > > > > > > > > or the barrel drops sharply into the plane of the shoulders. Usually
> > > > > > > > > these hitters have their axis slighlty forward.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Taking Alex as an example, Alex believes in keeping the hands above
> > > > > > > > > the ball, working slightly down. His swing plane has a bigger 'dip' on
> > > > > > > > > the low stuff. Much flatter on the high stuff. Very typical approach
> > > > > > > > > in fastpitch.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This really can be discussed 'forever'. If your bent on hitting the
> > > > > > > > > high heat, or hitting the low heat, it will affect your approach.
> > > > > > > > > Trying to get a low ball hitter to hit some high heat can be like
> > > > > > > > > banging your head against the wall and vice versa.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Taking another approach besides the many different hitters in the
> > > > > > > > > game, is swing planes. Are they the same for both sports, YES. It
> > > > > > > > > doesn't matter where the ball started from. Hitting a ball solid in
> > > > > > > > > space (barrel and ball in the same space at the same time) is the same
> > > > > > > > > for both. With that I will post a clip, I was planning on posting this
> > > > > > > > > for some lively discussion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Two hitters with the same mechanics, same approach, close to the same
> > > > > > > > > posture etc., (very close mechanics), one plays baseball and one plays
> > > > > > > > > fastpitch, both have some power (HR'S on both swings). One starts with
> > > > > > > > > the hands 'high' the other keeps the hands in the shoulder plane
> > > > > > > > > always. The fastpitch hitter has to 'drop' the barrel farther than the
> > > > > > > > > baseball hitter (swing down). The baseball hitter keeps the barrel
> > > > > > > > > posture matching and tilts (adjusts) the upperbody (lead arm), doesn't
> > > > > > > > > drop the barrel as far (or doesn't swing down). The pitch location is
> > > > > > > > > close to the same, only one pitch starts low to high, one starts high
> > > > > > > > > to low.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hopefully everyone can see both swings well enough, and the barrel and
> > > > > > > > > the hands. The orginal video wasn't great, and the distance from the
> > > > > > > > > hitter doesn't help.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/leebell1970/bbandfp.html
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Enjoy, And I hope Jack and Mark will make some comments on both
> > > > > > > swings.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Shawn
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I can't seem to pull up the clip. Any ideas?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As to swinging down at the ball, everyone does except for the
> > > > > > > shoulder high fastball so the question is, what plane is the bat
> > > > > > > moving in at contact with respect to the ball. I can't speak for men's
> > > > > > > fastpitch, but the girls I see who are moving down across the plane of
> > > > > > > the ball path at contact are prone to bouncing ground outs and pop
> > > > > > > ups. When they hit the ball hard, it is almost invariably a pitch up
> > > > > > > in the zone that they can't help but swing the bat in plane with the
> > > > > > > ball path. On the other hand, they don't strike out much, but if weak
> > > > > > > grounders are your usual result...?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As to your approach being dictated by whether you are looking for
> > > > > > > low pitches or high pitches, my philosophy is look low first since the
> > > > > > > "high heat is often not a strike anyway, especially in fastpitch.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mark H.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark H,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry, fixed the problem. :) It will load now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shawn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark H.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you will find that strike out are very common in fastpitch softball.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are correct about weak hitting being caused by hitting down on the ball at a very steep angle. If they had a flatter plane they could hit with a little more power, but not much.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They would still be weak hitter because they are taught to "crush the bug."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joe A.
> > > > >
> > > > > My daughter just finished her youth fastpitch career on a team that qualified for gold nationals so I've already seen what you speak of in terms of strikeouts and weak hitting in fastpitch. This is certainly not universal. There are many hitters that routinely smoke the ball, just not as big a percentage as baseball. The question really amounts to, is fastpitch a pitching dominant game or is it just poor hitting technique. My answer would be that it is some of both.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to hitting with a "flatter plane", I really don't like that term. I think it encourages kids to think about swinging flat with respect to the ground. This is exactly what many of these girls do. If they get a mistake up in the zone, they smoke it(relative term). But anything down, they end up chopping down on since they are starting out their swing in a linear fashion pushing both hands straight forward toward the pitcher's chest.
> > > > >
> > > > > As to "they" being taught to squash the bug, there are many different hitting styles and techniques to be observed in a top level fastpitch tourney so I don't think you can say "they" do any one thing. There are many that hit the ball well, but what I have noticed is some weaker hitters will start on top level successful teams with a low level of success and ineffective hitting mechanics that would never be tolerated on a LL all star baseball team much less a select baseball team. For some of these, "squashing the bug" would be a distinct improvement ;-). Especially if they used good upper body mechanics.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would make this observation. It seems to me that the level of techical competence and knowledge in pitching is higher in fastpitch than baseball while the level of techical competence and knowledge in hitting is higher in baseball than fastpitch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark H.
> > > >
> > > > Mark H.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting post. Understanding that nothing is universal, there are common beleives in fastpitch softball that have dictated that a certain method of hitting is best.
> > > >
> > > > These beliefs, both incorrect, are: 1. Pitchers throw a rise ball that curves up and 2 Less reaction time.
> > >
> > > You are right about the reaction time. As to the rise rising or not, it does arrive higher than the hitter thinks it will. Therefore, whatever it is really doing, a good one is very effective. I would also say this, if you have never seen one that darn sure "looked" like it rose and rose substantially, you have never seen a good one. I find that in discussing this pitch, many outside of Houston and the West Coast have never seen one that really made them wonder "how their eyes could play tricks on them like that or did that thing really rise"? If you ever get a chance to sit on the bucket and catch a really good riseball pitcher, it is a lot of fun to watch regardless of what it is really doing.
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> > > > These two beleifs have given rise to a hitting style that requires hitters to hit down on the ball
> > >
> > > Even if it's rising, this strategy wouldn't work worth a hoot anyway. Best thing to do, is lay off the high stuff. Very few girls, even in gold can throw effective rises(whatever they actually do)in the zone and make you miss so make the pitcher prove she will throw it for a strike. If she can and will and at the same time make you miss it,...well, it's going to be a long afternoon.
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> > > and to have a swing that has as few moving parts as possible because of the reaction time.
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> > > > The answer to this has been the "karate chop" and "crush the bug" mechanics which in turn has lead to weak hitting in the sense thatthe ball is not hit hard, when it is hit. Further, because of weak (not hard) hitting many coaches want ground balls becuase they are more difficult to play then balls it in the air. A grounder has to be caught, thrown and caught again. A ball in the air just needs to be caught. This entire idea about offense is based on the permiss that the ball will be hit weakly.
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> > > I can't disagree with this, except I can't be sure of what you personally mean when you say "squash the bug".
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> > > > But its not only poor mechanics and "reactive" coashing that accounts for poor hitting. Very few hitters understand hitting strategy. So many times I have seen hitters take a thrid strike and stand there waiting for the next pitch not know they were out becasue they didn't know the count. Very few will choke up with two strikes. These and other "thinking" part of hitting is lacking in softball.
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> > > I see this in both games.
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> > > > But the real proof that it is not so much good pitching as good hitting is this. Most good pitchers in the 18 and under, high school, level are fast ball pitchers throwing 60 mhp or more.
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> > > I see few pitchers in HS throwing an honest 60. Shoot, there are plenty of successful gold and DI pitchers who don't crack 60 in games.
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> > > (This is not so true in college because at 43 ft the benefit of speed is minimized.) But, at these speeds there is little movement on the ball.
> > >
> > > Joe, you speak in an authoritative voice about that which you know little. Movement is king in upper level youth fastpitch and even more so in college. If you can't move the ball, your future is not bright in 16U or above fastpitch at the A levels in the stronger parts of the country. Go to Socal and watch any tourney the Batbusters play in or come to Houston this fall and watch the two Spring Klein exposure tournaments. You will see almost every pitcher, breaking the ball left, right, or down. You will see quite a few, who can make the ball appear to be breaking up. Whether it is or not is really beside the point. The point is, you have obviously not been around good fastpitch.
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> > > Further, most of these pitchers can go many innings without walking a batter and almost never hit a batter. They are throwing strikes.
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> > > > So what you have is a fast ball pitcher, with little break on the ball throwing it over or near the plate 80% of the time. Its almost like a pitching machine and yet these kids can't hit them. They should be killing them.
> > >
> > > Hitting technique is weak among many, but pitching is not. Most top pitchers almost never throw a fastball in a game, so once again, you don't know what you are talking about.
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> > > > As for a lot hitting happening, check scores. At the 18 and under level If you score 3 runs in a fast pitch softball game you will win more then 90% of your games. I suspect that this is true at the college and olympic level but I dont have fist hand knoweldge.
> > >
> > > What is your "first hand" knowledge of fastpitch? Been to Boulder, Aurora, Gold Nationals, any exposure tourney in California or Houston? Maybe just HS games and a few rec league games?
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> > > This is why they had to go to a tie breaker in most categories of softball. Like soccer, little scoring. If they are hitting, where are the runs?
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> > > > Joe A.
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> > >
> > > Jump over on spy softball for some BA from gold nationals well into the 300's. Check the report on the winning team's clean up hitter getting constantly walked until the title game when she came up with bases loaded and they had to pitch to her. Guess they should have walked her. She hit a grand slam well over the fence. Check the top HS batting averages in the Houston Chronicle. As to the low scores, some of it is dominant pitchers doing things with movement and speed which I know you have never seen and part of it is weak hitting technique as you say.
> > >
> > > I hope everyone can follow where I interspersed my answers to Joe after each of his points. Tell me if that's too hard to follow. Just saves some typing. Thanks.
> > >
> > > Mark H.
> >
> > Mark H.
> >
> > Impressive response. But so much of it relies on your "impressions." For example, you talk about pitchers throwing ball the break in and out and down. I don't want to belittle your thoughts but I find this hard to accept from people who beleive they "see" the ball rise.
>
> Thank you for your measured response. Are you saying that you don't believe fastpitch girls can make the ball break left, right or down? Seriously???? Really???? You're pulling my leg, right? As to "fastballs", it is quite common for a 18U gold pitcher to go a whole game and throw nothing but breaking pitches and change ups. If she throws more than a handful of straight pitches, she will likely get hit hard(in ASA gold softball). Straight down breaking pitches, called drops in fastpitch are elementary. Most good pitchers learn these in junior high. Teaching a RH fastpitch pitcher to break the ball away from a RH batter is no big deal. Breaking it the other way is more difficult and less common, but not too unusual. If you like, I could recommend videos or a website explaining all this.
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> As to the ball rising, I know it looks like it rises when you see a good one. I know that some girls make it look like it rises a lot more than other girls who make it look like it rises just a little. Does it rise? I know that scientific types say baseballs can't, but I am unaware of a definitive study with a top riseball pitcher showing that in fact it is only an illusion. Does it rise? Doesn't matter, it makes hitters miss and if you have never seen one that made you say "wow, I don't believe pitches can rise, but that one sure looked like it did" then you have never seen a good one. If the University of Texas plays near you next spring, go watch the tall left handed freshman. She is worth the price of a ticket.
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> By the way, many in the fastpitch community agree that the rise is just an illusion. Maybe so. Doesn't matter. Spin a softball backwards real fast while throwing it in the 50's or better and most hitters will miss it or pop it up.
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> > Also, your assuption that i have not seen many game or "high level'games is a bit eletist don't you think?
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> It is an educated guess based on your "knowledge" of the game.
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> It alot like the people who are told that science proves that a ball can not rise who say 'Did that scientist ever bat against a soft ball pitcher?"
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> I wouldn't call that elitist, but merely stubborn. Columbus was stubborn, but then again, so was Joan of Arc. ;)
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> > Softball has one common characteristic all over the country. Over coaching. Most coaches call all the pitches. They move fielders around one step here and one step there like they know something. I once heard a coach yell from the doughout that the batter "likes to go deep in the count" Huh. what does that mean.
> >
> > Most teams log what the hitters do. Then when the hitter comes up again they tell the fielders what she did. What does that mean, that the kid should be more alert then she would be? Do the other players relax now?
> >
> > I could go on and on with other examples about the over coaching, but the point is that coaches make the game more complicated then it is because they want to control every aspect of the game. why is it that almost none of the catchers are qualified to call pitches?
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> What softball have you been watching????
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> > With all due respect, because I think you are sincer, but, I see this same attituded on yor answer.
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> > Joe A.
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> Overcoaching? Because I don't think you know much about high level fastpitch?
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> Mark H.

Mark H.

Your last comment in your previous post makes my point exaclty. You want to keep that aura of "knowledge" and will never admit that any one, even your players, know anything about the game at any level. Thats why you move them a step here and a half a step there, call all the pitches, give signals to the batter on every pitch, track the hits and tell the fielders where the last ball was hit.

I bet you have a signal for a "rise ball," right? You have a signal for a pitch that does not exist. Does that suggest something about the mentality of the game?

Heres a question, why is a rise ball always a high pitch? If a pitcher could throw a ball below the hitters knees and have it "curve up" into the strike zone, nobody could hit it. Most wouldnt even swing at it. So, why don't pitcher throw the rise ball low?

I have a bet with a person sitting here that you won't answer this question. Unless its an attack on me for asking it.

Joe A.