Posted by: () on Thu Aug 9 07:31:06 2001

Hi All
> > > >
> > > > Below is an e-mail exchange I had with Mark Smith, head coach of
> > > Canada's Men's National Fastpitch Softball Team. There are coaches
> > > that come to the site that are more qualified to discuss fastpitch
> > > hitting than I am. I thought I would post our remarks (with Mark?s ok)
> > > for others who may like to join the discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > > > >>> My name is Mark Smith and I am the head coach of Canada's Men's
> > > National Fastpitch Softball Team. I have read some of the information
> > > on your site and certainly agree with many points. Successful hitters
> > > have many things in common, including sound mechanics, however the
> > > information on your site tends to address baseball hitters moreso than
> > > softball hitters. In fastpitch softball the swing plane is be "down
> > > and through" the hitting zone, much like the swings of a Paul Molitor,
> > > George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro Suzuki of
> > > Seattle. In my opinion those men were pure hitters, athletes able to
> > > use the same swing in either sport. Most major league hitters would
> > > make a living in fastpitch softball because the swing is shorter and
> > > more compact, plus the rise ball would dominate them initially. I
> > > realize men's fastpitch softball is a fairly low profile sport, but I
> > > can tell you that in the United States, most fastpitch players are
> > > former baseball players, some with double AA and tripple A experience
> > > who for whatever reason couldn't make it to the "show".
> > > >
> > > > I think your site offers a great perspective on hitting and gives
> > > the avid hitter or coach "food for thought", but I would suggest that
> > > fastpitch softball at the world class level employs a slightly
> > > different swing path and can be more handsy or wristy if you like give
> > > the short pitching distance (46ft) and the importance of having a
> > > short compact stroke.
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to critique your video and see what over comments I could
> > > offer from the men's game. Thanks for your time.<<<
> > > >
> > > > Hi Mark
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your interest in the site, and its' material. -- Mark,
> > > I would have to take exception with your statement, "the swings of a
> > > Paul Molitor, George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro
> > > Suzuki of Seattle," have a "down and through" swing plane. I would
> > > agree that their swing plane may be more level in the zone than most
> > > of the power hitters. But even their planes have leveled out and are
> > > on a slight up-slope at contact.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, studying the swing of George Brett is when I discovered
> > > the mechanic I call top-hand-torque. With it, he was not only capable
> > > of hitting for a high average he was also able to hit with real power.
> > > Plus, his swing time from initiation to contact was shorter than Tony
> > > Gwynn or Rod Carew.
> > > >
> > > > I know that most coaches, especially fastpitch coaches, think the
> > > quickest way to get the bat-head to the ball is with "quick extension
> > > of the hands" type of mechanics. That is just not true. Hitters like
> > > Bonds and A-Rod who keep the hands back and allow shoulder rotation
> > > (with top-hand-torque) to bring the hands to the zone, they get the
> > > bat-head to the ball in 4 to 4-1/2 video frames after initiation. The
> > > players who use their arms and drive the top-hand forward at
> > > initiation take 5 to 5-1/2 frames and the hands travel 6 to 10 inches
> > > farther to make contact. Sticking with the "quick hands" mechanics,
> > > instead of using the larger muscle-groups of the body, has caused many
> > > hitters, baseball and softball, to use lighter and lighter bats with
> > > progressively weaker driving substance.
> > > >
> > > > Mark, ask yourself this question. -- If the lower release point of
> > > the softball pitcher would make a good baseball swing ineffective, say
> > > Barry Bonds, --- why is major league baseball not filled with
> > > submarine type pitchers? They have a release point that is 10 to 12
> > > inches lower than fastpitch yet they do not prove to be that effective
> > > against the better hitters.
> > > >
> > > > PS: This would be a good topic for the discussion board. Would you
> > > mind if I posted it?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > > > ##
> > > >
> > > > ? Hi Jack,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the prompt reply. Let me say first that I have not
> > > researched hitting to the extent that you have, my 20 plus years of
> > > experience comes from being a world-class softball pitcher and hitter
> > > and studying the great hitters of both sports to see what they did to
> > > be so successful. I thought a bit about your comments and would like
> > > to offer my two cents worth if you don't mind.
> > > >
> > > > You said that Brett got the barrel to the hitting zone quicker than
> > > Carew or Gwynn and that brings to mind two pisibilities: 1. He started
> > > with his hands close to his natural launch position which allowed him
> > > to be quicker to the contact zone or 2. he tended to hit the ball more
> > > out in front. Both Gwynn and Carew by their own admission waited
> > > longer on the pitch before commiting to swing, this may allow for the
> > > longer extra frames to contact or they took slightly longer to get to
> > > their natural launch positions before initiating their swings.
> > > >
> > > > I find Barry Bond's comment about submarine pitching interesting. in
> > > 1982 I was invited to the Kansas City Royal's spring training as an
> > > expirement of sorts. As a fastpitch pitcher I was clocked at 109 mph
> > > underhand from 46 feet at the 81 ISC World Tournament, in the fall of
> > > 81 I was contact by a Royals scout and asked if I'd be interested in
> > > attending spring training at their expense. Trying to throw a 9 inch
> > > baseball from 60ft 6 inches with an under hand motion minus the full
> > > whip is very difficult and it stands to reason that there were few Dan
> > > Quisenberry's or Kent Tulkelve's in baseball. It was far to labouring
> > > on the arm from that distance, in fact I threw harder coming over the
> > > top in the conventional way most baseball pitchers throw.
> > > >
> > > > Bonds starts with his hands low which makes hitting to ball mid
> > > thigh and down easier for him. In the past few weeks when his home run
> > > tear has subsided, he's missing pitches (popping them up) up in the
> > > zone. If he carried his hands higher and leveled off his swing he'd be
> > > even more dangerous than he is.
> > > >
> > > > You commented that the hitters I mentioned have more level swings
> > > but slight uppercut near the finish and I would agree, but their path
> > > to the ball appears initially downward. Even in softball using a down
> > > and through swing path creates a slightly upward follow through, but
> > > that's after contact. The path to the ball is on a downward plane.
> > > >
> > > > More and more in major league baseball I see the softball swing
> > > being employed. Driving the ball usually means staying on top of the
> > > pitch and to do that you have to create a downward swing path. the
> > > monsters like Sosa and MacGuire will survive because in baseball every
> > > pitch breaks down and most pitchers aren't strike out pitchers, they
> > > rely on ground balls. But when you see the late inning closers come in
> > > with the 95 mile per hour heater, you don't often see even the guys
> > > with the upper cut swings driving the fastball up in the zone.
> > > >
> > > > we could debate this for hours Jack and I really appreciate your
> > > taking the time to reply. If you'd like to post my thoughts, thats
> > > great and I thank you for your time.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > Mark Smith
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Jack, Mark,
> > >
> > > I enjoyed both comments. Mark has some great insight in fastpitch and
> > > baseball.
> > >
> > > High hands and swinging down, vs the hands staying at or below the
> > > shoulders (in the plane of the shoulders). There are many different
> > > hitters in both games.
> > >
> > > There are hitters that can start with hands above the shoulder, and
> > > then slot the back elbow rather sharply. Some hitters can even keep
> > > the hands high at initiation (the back elbow slot is about mid-torso,
> > > vs. waist line). Their arc flattens much later, initiation to contact,
> > > or the barrel drops sharply into the plane of the shoulders. Usually
> > > these hitters have their axis slighlty forward.
> > >
> > > Taking Alex as an example, Alex believes in keeping the hands above
> > > the ball, working slightly down. His swing plane has a bigger 'dip' on
> > > the low stuff. Much flatter on the high stuff. Very typical approach
> > > in fastpitch.
> > >
> > > This really can be discussed 'forever'. If your bent on hitting the
> > > high heat, or hitting the low heat, it will affect your approach.
> > > Trying to get a low ball hitter to hit some high heat can be like
> > > banging your head against the wall and vice versa.
> > >
> > > Taking another approach besides the many different hitters in the
> > > game, is swing planes. Are they the same for both sports, YES. It
> > > doesn't matter where the ball started from. Hitting a ball solid in
> > > space (barrel and ball in the same space at the same time) is the same
> > > for both. With that I will post a clip, I was planning on posting this
> > > for some lively discussion.
> > >
> > > Two hitters with the same mechanics, same approach, close to the same
> > > posture etc., (very close mechanics), one plays baseball and one plays
> > > fastpitch, both have some power (HR'S on both swings). One starts with
> > > the hands 'high' the other keeps the hands in the shoulder plane
> > > always. The fastpitch hitter has to 'drop' the barrel farther than the
> > > baseball hitter (swing down). The baseball hitter keeps the barrel
> > > posture matching and tilts (adjusts) the upperbody (lead arm), doesn't
> > > drop the barrel as far (or doesn't swing down). The pitch location is
> > > close to the same, only one pitch starts low to high, one starts high
> > > to low.
> > >
> > > Hopefully everyone can see both swings well enough, and the barrel and
> > > the hands. The orginal video wasn't great, and the distance from the
> > > hitter doesn't help.
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/leebell1970/bbandfp.html
> > >
> > > Enjoy, And I hope Jack and Mark will make some comments on both
> swings.
> > >
> > > Shawn
> >
> > I can't seem to pull up the clip. Any ideas?
> >
> > As to swinging down at the ball, everyone does except for the
> shoulder high fastball so the question is, what plane is the bat
> moving in at contact with respect to the ball. I can't speak for men's
> fastpitch, but the girls I see who are moving down across the plane of
> the ball path at contact are prone to bouncing ground outs and pop
> ups. When they hit the ball hard, it is almost invariably a pitch up
> in the zone that they can't help but swing the bat in plane with the
> ball path. On the other hand, they don't strike out much, but if weak
> grounders are your usual result...?
> >
> > As to your approach being dictated by whether you are looking for
> low pitches or high pitches, my philosophy is look low first since the
> "high heat is often not a strike anyway, especially in fastpitch.
> >
> > Mark H.
>
> Mark H,
>
> Sorry, fixed the problem. :) It will load now.
>
> Shawn

Mark H.

I think you will find that strike out are very common in fastpitch softball.

You are correct about weak hitting being caused by hitting down on the ball at a very steep angle. If they had a flatter plane they could hit with a little more power, but not much.

They would still be weak hitter because they are taught to "crush the bug."

Joe A.