Posted by: Mark H. () on Thu Aug 9 15:41:11 2001

Hi All
> > > > >
> > > > > Below is an e-mail exchange I had with Mark Smith, head coach of
> > > > Canada's Men's National Fastpitch Softball Team. There are coaches
> > > > that come to the site that are more qualified to discuss fastpitch
> > > > hitting than I am. I thought I would post our remarks (with Mark?s ok)
> > > > for others who may like to join the discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> My name is Mark Smith and I am the head coach of Canada's Men's
> > > > National Fastpitch Softball Team. I have read some of the information
> > > > on your site and certainly agree with many points. Successful hitters
> > > > have many things in common, including sound mechanics, however the
> > > > information on your site tends to address baseball hitters moreso than
> > > > softball hitters. In fastpitch softball the swing plane is be "down
> > > > and through" the hitting zone, much like the swings of a Paul Molitor,
> > > > George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro Suzuki of
> > > > Seattle. In my opinion those men were pure hitters, athletes able to
> > > > use the same swing in either sport. Most major league hitters would
> > > > make a living in fastpitch softball because the swing is shorter and
> > > > more compact, plus the rise ball would dominate them initially. I
> > > > realize men's fastpitch softball is a fairly low profile sport, but I
> > > > can tell you that in the United States, most fastpitch players are
> > > > former baseball players, some with double AA and tripple A experience
> > > > who for whatever reason couldn't make it to the "show".
> > > > >
> > > > > I think your site offers a great perspective on hitting and gives
> > > > the avid hitter or coach "food for thought", but I would suggest that
> > > > fastpitch softball at the world class level employs a slightly
> > > > different swing path and can be more handsy or wristy if you like give
> > > > the short pitching distance (46ft) and the importance of having a
> > > > short compact stroke.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd love to critique your video and see what over comments I could
> > > > offer from the men's game. Thanks for your time.<<<
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your interest in the site, and its' material. -- Mark,
> > > > I would have to take exception with your statement, "the swings of a
> > > > Paul Molitor, George Brett, Tony Gwynn or Rod Carew and of late Ichiro
> > > > Suzuki of Seattle," have a "down and through" swing plane. I would
> > > > agree that their swing plane may be more level in the zone than most
> > > > of the power hitters. But even their planes have leveled out and are
> > > > on a slight up-slope at contact.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, studying the swing of George Brett is when I discovered
> > > > the mechanic I call top-hand-torque. With it, he was not only capable
> > > > of hitting for a high average he was also able to hit with real power.
> > > > Plus, his swing time from initiation to contact was shorter than Tony
> > > > Gwynn or Rod Carew.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know that most coaches, especially fastpitch coaches, think the
> > > > quickest way to get the bat-head to the ball is with "quick extension
> > > > of the hands" type of mechanics. That is just not true. Hitters like
> > > > Bonds and A-Rod who keep the hands back and allow shoulder rotation
> > > > (with top-hand-torque) to bring the hands to the zone, they get the
> > > > bat-head to the ball in 4 to 4-1/2 video frames after initiation. The
> > > > players who use their arms and drive the top-hand forward at
> > > > initiation take 5 to 5-1/2 frames and the hands travel 6 to 10 inches
> > > > farther to make contact. Sticking with the "quick hands" mechanics,
> > > > instead of using the larger muscle-groups of the body, has caused many
> > > > hitters, baseball and softball, to use lighter and lighter bats with
> > > > progressively weaker driving substance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark, ask yourself this question. -- If the lower release point of
> > > > the softball pitcher would make a good baseball swing ineffective, say
> > > > Barry Bonds, --- why is major league baseball not filled with
> > > > submarine type pitchers? They have a release point that is 10 to 12
> > > > inches lower than fastpitch yet they do not prove to be that effective
> > > > against the better hitters.
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: This would be a good topic for the discussion board. Would you
> > > > mind if I posted it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > >
> > > > > ##
> > > > >
> > > > > ? Hi Jack,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the prompt reply. Let me say first that I have not
> > > > researched hitting to the extent that you have, my 20 plus years of
> > > > experience comes from being a world-class softball pitcher and hitter
> > > > and studying the great hitters of both sports to see what they did to
> > > > be so successful. I thought a bit about your comments and would like
> > > > to offer my two cents worth if you don't mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > You said that Brett got the barrel to the hitting zone quicker than
> > > > Carew or Gwynn and that brings to mind two pisibilities: 1. He started
> > > > with his hands close to his natural launch position which allowed him
> > > > to be quicker to the contact zone or 2. he tended to hit the ball more
> > > > out in front. Both Gwynn and Carew by their own admission waited
> > > > longer on the pitch before commiting to swing, this may allow for the
> > > > longer extra frames to contact or they took slightly longer to get to
> > > > their natural launch positions before initiating their swings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I find Barry Bond's comment about submarine pitching interesting. in
> > > > 1982 I was invited to the Kansas City Royal's spring training as an
> > > > expirement of sorts. As a fastpitch pitcher I was clocked at 109 mph
> > > > underhand from 46 feet at the 81 ISC World Tournament, in the fall of
> > > > 81 I was contact by a Royals scout and asked if I'd be interested in
> > > > attending spring training at their expense. Trying to throw a 9 inch
> > > > baseball from 60ft 6 inches with an under hand motion minus the full
> > > > whip is very difficult and it stands to reason that there were few Dan
> > > > Quisenberry's or Kent Tulkelve's in baseball. It was far to labouring
> > > > on the arm from that distance, in fact I threw harder coming over the
> > > > top in the conventional way most baseball pitchers throw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bonds starts with his hands low which makes hitting to ball mid
> > > > thigh and down easier for him. In the past few weeks when his home run
> > > > tear has subsided, he's missing pitches (popping them up) up in the
> > > > zone. If he carried his hands higher and leveled off his swing he'd be
> > > > even more dangerous than he is.
> > > > >
> > > > > You commented that the hitters I mentioned have more level swings
> > > > but slight uppercut near the finish and I would agree, but their path
> > > > to the ball appears initially downward. Even in softball using a down
> > > > and through swing path creates a slightly upward follow through, but
> > > > that's after contact. The path to the ball is on a downward plane.
> > > > >
> > > > > More and more in major league baseball I see the softball swing
> > > > being employed. Driving the ball usually means staying on top of the
> > > > pitch and to do that you have to create a downward swing path. the
> > > > monsters like Sosa and MacGuire will survive because in baseball every
> > > > pitch breaks down and most pitchers aren't strike out pitchers, they
> > > > rely on ground balls. But when you see the late inning closers come in
> > > > with the 95 mile per hour heater, you don't often see even the guys
> > > > with the upper cut swings driving the fastball up in the zone.
> > > > >
> > > > > we could debate this for hours Jack and I really appreciate your
> > > > taking the time to reply. If you'd like to post my thoughts, thats
> > > > great and I thank you for your time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark Smith
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jack, Mark,
> > > >
> > > > I enjoyed both comments. Mark has some great insight in fastpitch and
> > > > baseball.
> > > >
> > > > High hands and swinging down, vs the hands staying at or below the
> > > > shoulders (in the plane of the shoulders). There are many different
> > > > hitters in both games.
> > > >
> > > > There are hitters that can start with hands above the shoulder, and
> > > > then slot the back elbow rather sharply. Some hitters can even keep
> > > > the hands high at initiation (the back elbow slot is about mid-torso,
> > > > vs. waist line). Their arc flattens much later, initiation to contact,
> > > > or the barrel drops sharply into the plane of the shoulders. Usually
> > > > these hitters have their axis slighlty forward.
> > > >
> > > > Taking Alex as an example, Alex believes in keeping the hands above
> > > > the ball, working slightly down. His swing plane has a bigger 'dip' on
> > > > the low stuff. Much flatter on the high stuff. Very typical approach
> > > > in fastpitch.
> > > >
> > > > This really can be discussed 'forever'. If your bent on hitting the
> > > > high heat, or hitting the low heat, it will affect your approach.
> > > > Trying to get a low ball hitter to hit some high heat can be like
> > > > banging your head against the wall and vice versa.
> > > >
> > > > Taking another approach besides the many different hitters in the
> > > > game, is swing planes. Are they the same for both sports, YES. It
> > > > doesn't matter where the ball started from. Hitting a ball solid in
> > > > space (barrel and ball in the same space at the same time) is the same
> > > > for both. With that I will post a clip, I was planning on posting this
> > > > for some lively discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Two hitters with the same mechanics, same approach, close to the same
> > > > posture etc., (very close mechanics), one plays baseball and one plays
> > > > fastpitch, both have some power (HR'S on both swings). One starts with
> > > > the hands 'high' the other keeps the hands in the shoulder plane
> > > > always. The fastpitch hitter has to 'drop' the barrel farther than the
> > > > baseball hitter (swing down). The baseball hitter keeps the barrel
> > > > posture matching and tilts (adjusts) the upperbody (lead arm), doesn't
> > > > drop the barrel as far (or doesn't swing down). The pitch location is
> > > > close to the same, only one pitch starts low to high, one starts high
> > > > to low.
> > > >
> > > > Hopefully everyone can see both swings well enough, and the barrel and
> > > > the hands. The orginal video wasn't great, and the distance from the
> > > > hitter doesn't help.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/leebell1970/bbandfp.html
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy, And I hope Jack and Mark will make some comments on both
> > swings.
> > > >
> > > > Shawn
> > >
> > > I can't seem to pull up the clip. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > As to swinging down at the ball, everyone does except for the
> > shoulder high fastball so the question is, what plane is the bat
> > moving in at contact with respect to the ball. I can't speak for men's
> > fastpitch, but the girls I see who are moving down across the plane of
> > the ball path at contact are prone to bouncing ground outs and pop
> > ups. When they hit the ball hard, it is almost invariably a pitch up
> > in the zone that they can't help but swing the bat in plane with the
> > ball path. On the other hand, they don't strike out much, but if weak
> > grounders are your usual result...?
> > >
> > > As to your approach being dictated by whether you are looking for
> > low pitches or high pitches, my philosophy is look low first since the
> > "high heat is often not a strike anyway, especially in fastpitch.
> > >
> > > Mark H.
> >
> > Mark H,
> >
> > Sorry, fixed the problem. :) It will load now.
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Mark H.
>
> I think you will find that strike out are very common in fastpitch softball.
>
> You are correct about weak hitting being caused by hitting down on the ball at a very steep angle. If they had a flatter plane they could hit with a little more power, but not much.
>
> They would still be weak hitter because they are taught to "crush the bug."
>
> Joe A.

My daughter just finished her youth fastpitch career on a team that qualified for gold nationals so I've already seen what you speak of in terms of strikeouts and weak hitting in fastpitch. This is certainly not universal. There are many hitters that routinely smoke the ball, just not as big a percentage as baseball. The question really amounts to, is fastpitch a pitching dominant game or is it just poor hitting technique. My answer would be that it is some of both.

As to hitting with a "flatter plane", I really don't like that term. I think it encourages kids to think about swinging flat with respect to the ground. This is exactly what many of these girls do. If they get a mistake up in the zone, they smoke it(relative term). But anything down, they end up chopping down on since they are starting out their swing in a linear fashion pushing both hands straight forward toward the pitcher's chest.

As to "they" being taught to squash the bug, there are many different hitting styles and techniques to be observed in a top level fastpitch tourney so I don't think you can say "they" do any one thing. There are many that hit the ball well, but what I have noticed is some weaker hitters will start on top level successful teams with a low level of success and ineffective hitting mechanics that would never be tolerated on a LL all star baseball team much less a select baseball team. For some of these, "squashing the bug" would be a distinct improvement ;-). Especially if they used good upper body mechanics.

I would make this observation. It seems to me that the level of techical competence and knowledge in pitching is higher in fastpitch than baseball while the level of techical competence and knowledge in hitting is higher in baseball than fastpitch.

Mark H.