Posted by: BHL (Knight1285@aol.com) on Tue Feb 17 07:07:01 2004

>>> You might be right on this one, when one applies it literally. The reason I use the elbows this way in the fence drill is so that hitters can "feel" the effect of a tight, circular path. However, if this "cue" allows a person to attain "results," and correct a problem via overcompensation, does it really matter what "cue" a person uses to attain the proper biomechanical results. I believe this is what Mad Max (on Paul Nyman's site) is referring to when he discusses cues vs. reality. I am not a Setpro regular, but did read that article.
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> As a sidebar, if you want to know where my cues for hip rotation were derived, visit the 12th page of the Mike Epstein forum. Scroll down approximately 20 topics (many containing their own threads), until you find a subject posted by John Abreu (on Mar-14-02) called "Stance." Under the head topic listic, scroll down about five threads to Mike's response on "Stance" (on Jun-12-02), where he responds to a poster named Greggie. Read the brief instruction Mike gives to a coach who needs to use his backside proactively because the hips do not turn when the front heel drops. Then, tell me why you think these cues are "bad." Perhaps you will discover that rotating the heel--rotating the bat head works for some individuals in rotating around a stationary axis, but Mike's "cues" are also valid. <<<
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> Hi BHL
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> While reading your statement, I could not help but wonder what response you would get from Paul Nyman or Mike Epstien if you went to their sites and asked to have an open forum (like we have at Batspeed.com) to compare Jack Mankin’s batting principles to theirs.
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> Personally, I think it takes a lot of gall for someone to come to this site to promote someone else’s theories when neither Mike nor Paul will allow dissenting views on their own sites, at least not in an open forum. I have often told myself that if I can’t take the heat - I should get out of the kitchen. Well, they basically preach to the choir from behind closed doors. – Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest.
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> Jack Mankin
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Hi again,

I understand your degree of frustration with both forums. I cannot comment on Nyman's current board, because I am not an "insider." Yet, I see a functional difference between your forum and Mike's forum. Your forum is geared towards an open-minded discussions of material, specifically as it relates to the baseball /softball swing, even if the material contradicts your own. Mike's support forum, on the other hand, is not geared towards discussing the theories of others, but simply to correct the biomechanical flaws of the swings of others (i.e., the emphasis is on getting individuals past mechanical "speed bumps," and not on analytic discussion of the theories of others). Seen in this light, your forum serves a different, albeit wider, purpose than Mike's.

Now, please do not get the idea that I am trying to pit Mankin vs. Epstein. I am not. Mike's forum has strict rules, but he has, on more than one occasion, expressed respect for your character, your work, and your ideas. In fact, I think that the mechanics that both of you teach (if you possess his new CD-Rom) are quite similar. I use your site to understand what actually happens in the baseball swing, than utilize Mike's material in search for "cues" to make it happen.

I remember in certain posts a couple of years ago, you were interested in hearing about Epstein's philosophy. Some came here, and attempted to "proselytize" others, though this is not my intention. My reason for sending you to his forum is that in a post a few years back, you stated that Mike has done work on lower body "cues" than you did (i.e., before The Final Arc II), although the Final Arc II would also tell one "cues" for acquire good lower body mechanics. I just wanted to orient you in a direction where you can understand why I recommend hitters using Mike's "cues," rather than yours. My conclusion was that, at first, the backside, as well as the frontside, must rotate, or the front heel drop will not initiate hip rotation. My worry about your lower body system is the real reason I instructed you how to access the question on the site.

Now, perhaps you may not want to because Mike Epstein's site is not about debating, but, if you decide (and only you can), go that section I pointed out to you, and explain to me why you disagree with those "cues." Maybe it will only be a brief explanation. I am not forcing you to accept another's "cue-wagon"; I just want to understand your reason why you feel such cues are counterproductive.

I have to get this off my chest too: your last response was a little hurtful, but let's move on and remain friends!

Sincerely,
BHL
Knight1285@aol.com