Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Jan 22 13:12:15 2003

Jack,
> > I have a question concerning the technique you teach. I purchased your video and am implementing the batspeed style, but I have two concerns.
> >
> > 1) It appears that your style causes the batter to dip the back shoulder at point of contact. This is clearly pictured in your training booklet. When we began practice this year several of our HS coaches commented that my son was now dipping his back shoulder which could cause an inordinate amount of grounders or pop flys.
> >
> > 2) Please explain how the batter covers the high pitch with the lead elbow elevated. This appears to be a nearly impossbile physical feat. I noticed that in the video John is hitting mostly pitches at or below the waist, what about shoulder high pitches?
>
> The bat rotates perpendicular to a stationery axis to generate greatest batspeed. The angle of the axis is determined by pitch location. Lower pitch, more body tilt so the bat can remain perpendicular to the axis and still get to the contact zone. On a high pitch the axis remains more upright (vertical) so the bat path can level out to get to the high pitch. The lead elbow will work down on the high pitch. The key here is your posture which makes the biggest adjustment to pitch location.
> >
> >

Rick-

I would answer your question this way.

Jack has described the mechanics necessary for a rotational swing.In other words,he has figured out a reasonable way to define the rotational swing which is what all successful power hitters,most successful line drive hitters and some contact hitters use.This definition avoids the confounding effects of weight shift and how much stride there is.You have to have the 3 arcs and the axis of rotation needs to be set as torso rotation drives the circular/arcing handpath.

However,weight shift probably has to be used to implement these mechanics successfully,allowing the body to generate energy efficiently("kinetic chain","kinetic link","summation of levers","transfer and conservation of momentum",whatever you want to call it).In golfers and hitters,I tend to see some forward and down motion of the center of gravity(sitting to hit) superimposed over body stretching and rotation.This "weight shift" is applied to finish separation and start the torso turning by creating resistance with weight bearing of the front foot.

So this is a hypothetical mechanical/biomechanical model.

Next,you can translate this model into "cues" that traditional baseball types will understand.Mike Epstein is the best at doing this.So you need to have answers to your questions in both technical and traditional "cue" terms.

Does the back shoulder dip ? With rotational mechanics,the back shoulder must dip.In general,the bat will swing perpendicular to torso rotation because this is the power plane dictated by the 3 arc model.The torso will turn in a plane set by the degree of bend at the waist combined with how much a hitter leans back his axis of rotation(Epstein calls this "sitting on the axis" and classifies hitters based on their personal style of sitting on the axis:lots of sit over the back leg sets up and axis that leans back for more elevation in a power hitter;little sit creats an upright axis for less elevation in the singles hitter;line drive hitter in between).So except for the very high pitch,the back shoulder must be expected to dip if the torso is rotating around a stable axis of rotation and you are matching the plane of the swing to the location of the pitch to maximize the likelihhod of contact.

You might expect the shoulders to stay level/not dip for the high pitch,however,I doubt this is ever the case,at least for a location still in the strike zone.This is because before the torso starts turning around the stable axis("launch") the body has already dipped the back shoulder slightly described by Epstein as "drop and tilt".The back shoulder tilts down(slight dip) as the front heel drops.This is happens in the frame or two(30 frames per second) before "launch".This is the THT portion of the swing as described by Jack.In this case the hips are rotating and the torso is still stretching creating separation as the "back elbow drops into the slot" and the front elbow "works up".(Dusty Baker calls it making the "box").This gets the bat turning early around an axis with a short radius and creates a stable/stretched/tightly connected configuration of the body prior to the final setting of the axis of rotation and the "launch" of the torso.Then when the front heel has dropped,the front foot bears weight and resists "lunging"(axis/center of gravity continuing forward once rotation of torso starts).The weight is used to set the axis and get the shoulders efficiently turning the tightly connected handpath in an arc.

So back shoulder dip is a necessary part of rotational mechanics.But it has to be dip contributing to rotation,not dip preventing rotation by swaying/arching the torso along the line to the pitcher.This kind of dip associated with linear swaying of the torso is what the coaches you have talked to are concerned about.If rotational mechanics with a compatible weight shift as described above are not present,then you have a linear swing.There are 2 basic types:

1- things aren't going well,coach decides whatever you do,you have to keep the weight back.In this case you get collapse of the backside,a big shoulder dip which just sways or arches the torso instead of contributing to rotation.In golf,it's called a "reverse pivot".This gives an arm swing where the hands drop then uppercut.Lots of kids can do pretty well with this at low levels because they can lift the ball a long way.At high levels,the timing won't be there and they will have to change(this is what concerns the coaches you are talking about now)so now the coach decides to try

2- linear swing #2- you have to "keep the shoulders level" exhibit "vertical stacking" or avoid the dreaded "shoulder dip".Instead of an uppercut swing,you swing down.(this is the swing the vast majority of fastpitch coaches teach).This swing will be somewhat effective at making contact and producing low balls,but soon it reaches its limits too.As Epstein points out,if you keep the shoulders level.Whatever weight starts on the back will shift to the front.So now the coach moves on to approach #3:

3-Keep the shoulder level and keep the weight back and swing down which,unfortunately is impossible.Maybe if the kid is lucky he will get out of this bind by figuring out real rotational mechanics,but this is unlikely.Usually this just assures the kid has to leave the sport.

But it can still be hard to figure out how to fix a kid whose shoulder dipping is causing the torso to sway instead of rotate.You pretty much have to go back and build the swing from ground up as discussed here.

If all else fails,they may listen to a guy like Epstein because he has credentials,or they might look at actual video with an open mind once prompted about what they might see.

That's question #1.

#2-how do you hit the high pitch.

Mechanically you learn to bend less at the waist and lean your axis of rotation less back.The swing almost never gets below parallel to the ground.An almost flat swing(with respect to the ground)can still elevate the high ball quite well.Once the body knows the basic mechanics,you can learn to recognize pitches and find a swing that will hit them hard.Epstein "cues" this via the "weathervaning" concept.In all cases the front elbow comes up with the "drop and tilt"("box") portion of the swing.After this,the hands/arms are tightly connected/fixed to the torso and hand/elbow postion become proxies for the degree of tilt the torso needs to match the plane of the pitch when "launch" begins.The front elbow feels like it works at different angles in a(another) slot-working up for the low ball and down for the high ball.This gives a swing key or image that allows the body/brain to pick and execute a stored swin program that is learned and made automatic in pratcice.Don't swing at the shoulder high pitches as the level of ball improves.