Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Nov 2 13:30:36 2005

Jack-

Thanks as always for the back and forth.

The golf swing is somewehat variable and some swings are more like hitting than others.With good analysis,it IS feasible in my opinion to carry over universals/learnings from golf AND throwing as well.

In my opinion,Jones swing/mechanics are near the end of the golf spectrum that is closest to hitting and many of the universals apply to both skills, including weight shift and the fact that you want to take your analysis back to the beginning of the swing which is the beginning of the load motion/backswing/inward turn/negative move.

The application to hitting can be seen,for example, in how similar Ted Williams' description was. He emphasized the metronomic action of the hips with emphasis on early turning back of the hips and hip cock:

SCIENCE OF HITTING p.45-6.

HIPS: WHERE THE ACTION IS

"Now we go into the area that breeds controversy - the moves of the hitter. Many of them have been misunderstood for years, and some of them have been completely overlooked. The most important I can think of is the COCKING of the HIPS. Sam Snead was once quoted as telling President Eisenhower; "You can't hit with authority until you get your butt into the ball." The advice applies to the baseball hitter.

."................Now, with your weight evenly distributed, your hips start out at level. You don't worry about hips until you actually begin performance of the swing. The hips and hands cok as you move your lead foot to stride, the front knee turning in to help the hips rotate back. You are COCKING YOUR HIPS AS YOU STRIDE, and it's so important to get that right.

"It's a pendulum action. A metronome - a move and countermove. You might not have realized it, but you throw a ball that way, you swing a golf club that way, you cast a fishing rod that way. You go back, and then you come forward. You don't start back there. And you don't "start" your swing with the hips coked.

"Ken Harrelson of the Indians was doing that one year. He was concentrating so much on coking the hips that he was actually doing it at the stance. He had his knee turned in and his hips cocked before the pitch. and without that pendulum action he wasn't generating any power. I made a mistake. I told him about it.....He beat us twice with home runs."


If you want to see a modern golfer the MOST like hitting,see Jim Furyk. (goto golfdigest.com,click on instruction,click on swing sequences,register for free,see clips of Furyk - and 50 others).His action is exactly as you describe the front foot/leg among other things.

Many modern golfers,however, HAVE evolved away from this similar end of the golf spectrum as you have observed with Hogan being the major emphasis for this point of departure toward the so-called "one plane swing". As players have gone down this path with modern souped up equipment,there has been less and less requirement for timing precision and more and more requirement for absolute maximum distance.

In golf this "one plane" approach depends on developing as much separation as possible between the hips and shoulders which translates to massive length,but good error management by avoiding pull/hook mistakes. This combo of limiting mistakes to one side of the fairway and more room for error in timing and massive length produce the best competitive results now (unfortunately in my opinion- a guy like Appleby can now hit the ball 400 yards).The modern one planer does not emphasize arm lift,keeps the arms in the shoulder plane in the backswing and "turns in a barrel" with no significant "weight shift" forward prior to hip turn (weight shift before hip turn is the "magic move" of 2 planers,but anathema to one plane "spinners".)

Jones was quite different. He turned the hips back more (modern one planers limit turning the hips back and accentuate turning the shoulders back to get the huge hip to shoulder stretch) and then created more controllable stretch with arm action as opposed to creating a big stretch between the hips and shoulders.This creates a more gradual stretch of many body segments that gives the desirable progressive speed gains with unloading and optimizes timing/reduces timing error.(In hitting,this more spread out/gradual stretch/coil/uncoil also permits very late adjustment of the shoulder link which the overstretched hip to shoulder type swing does not.)

Jones was a "2 plane" swinger (loading by lifting arms in a separate plane from shoulders) and when he unloaded, he kept the hands well ahead of the clubhead AND squared the clubface by torso turn NOT rotation of lead arm.Furyk is the same way.This is EXTREMELY similar to hitting arm action.

Furyk's father notes that Jim's mechanics with the unusual arm loop minimize the backward turn of the hips in the backswing (a very different way from how the oneplaners limit hip turn back) and result in more forward hipturn at contact and followthrough (just how you would modify things to quicken up the hitting stroke).

This is an article that discusses the huge differences in golf btween the 1 plane/Hogan and 2 plane/Jones/Watson type mechanics. Note- one reason to pick the 2 plane is if you have "good timing".

http://www.golfdigest.com/search/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200505swingplane2.html

SO I agree that you have to be careful applying learnings from golf,but the 2 plane swing where you square the clubface by torso turn is the place to start.

The hitting swing must be shortened and quickened and adjust late on the fly. Hip turn back in hitting must be greatly abbreviated, but NOT eliminated or taken out of sequence.That was one of Ted Williams important points.The thing that controls this is the arm/shoulder action sequence which is unique to hitting which is "THT". Hitting also requires the 2 handed push/pull grip/arm action as described by you. One thing missing from your model, in my opinion is the late up/down adjustment/axis tilt which Epstein describes as "tilt" which I think is primarily due to shoulder tilting when the front foot drops. Variations in weight shift are important here and only mentioned by Epstein as far as I know.This is also unique to hitting/not seen in golf, BUT nonetheless,weight shift and other mechanics are very similar to golf.

The loading arm action of hitting is also very similar to throwing even though you do not bend forward to finish loading and then unload in hitting as you do in throwing.One way to think of the comparison is that hitting is more a backhanded activity whereas throwing is forehand.Still the loading action and inward turn/hip cok/weight shift are very similar between hitting and throwing up to a point in the sequence.

The axis needs to be set as the unloading about a center of rotation is underway in hitting,but unloading does not start until well after the front heel is down and often the head can continue forward util the moment the bathead fires out of the arc of the handpath for getting on top of the high ball,Sosa being a good axample at youthbaseball-watch when his head stops forward progress on the high ball followed by chin tuck with unloading/bathead firing.

To make sense of weight shift analysis in hitting,I do think you need to distinguish foot position,which foot is carrying what proportion of weight,where the belt buckle/bellybutton/center is and where the head is.

Jones liked the term weight "SHIFT" to distinguish it from a "SWAY" (similar to the desired "carry" not "sway" concept in hitting).He often distinguished between the idea of what foot was bearing weight VS how the entire body/center of gravity was moving.The head motion/adjustment factor is not present/not involved in golf (since on the fly axis adjustment is not needed,but set instead by club selection/setup with a still ball).

Check out Furyk,it is very revealing.Golf analysts (Johnny Miller) are mystified by how close he gets to the ball/bellies up.