Posted by: Jim Ecc () on Sun Oct 31 15:41:48 2004

Scott- thanks for a diplomatic response and understanding that I am a firm believer in rotational hitting as the best method for hitting a baseball. Also for recognizing Jack's disciplined and educated work in his expertise on this topic.

Jack has always stuck to his premise that this forum provide "A frank and open-minded discussion of the swing"... that it should be a benefit to all. He has always handled responses professionally.

It has been implied I somehow represent SETPRO but I do not and really don't know much about that site or their instruction. I suppose this alleged connection has been because I keep pushing the THT envelope as I assume SETPRO does as well.

The scap load reference I make is just an example of another means I use to demo hands coming back. If that is mechanically/functionally the wrong principle as you say then what mechanic is it that allows a hitter to bring their hands back via a rear shoulder shrug "without" the need to apply THT to the bat?
Whatever "that" muscular function is does not require THT to be accomplished and can still provide many of the necessary components to qualify as a rotational swing.

The whole THT thing being an absolute to impart proper rotational mechanics obviously is the area I am not sold on. As I have stated, yes perhaps overstated, I WANT TO BE able to be confident THT is a necessary component or is it a bonus to the rotational swing to add batspeed or a distraction that if not performed correctly (with BHT), can limit/hinder the swing?

Again, nobody should have to apologize on this site for questioning something that is obviously still questioned.



> What am I missing here? Where in Jim's post (I don't know Jim) is there ANY mention of linear mechanics, or inference that it is a preferable means to hit?
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> And anyone who doesn't think Teacherman is a rotational mechanics advocate is NOT paying attention.
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> As I read Jim's post, it seems clear to me that the question is isolated to the application of THT as a principle of rotational mechanics. I agree that youth instruction is largely linear, I think a significant percentage of HS and College players have a linear bent to their swings. Even true in the minors. MLB is almost exclusively rotational mechanics and CHP. That alone would seem to settle the big question pretty eloquently. Natural selection works.
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> But that doesn't mean that there isn't variation within the "rotational" camp. Someone like McGwire set up a long way from the plate, and treated most pitches as middle/out. Bonds "bellies up," and treats all pitches as middle/in. Probably the two extremes in MLB - most are somewhere in-between.
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> I think it would be great to have a non-emotional discussion on the THT question. I know I would learn from that. Emotions run pretty high, and it may not be possible, but I'd sure like to attempt it, because I'm trying to learn here. (BTW, I am NOT a member at Setpro. I AM involved at Hitting-Mechanics as a moderator. I am, however, apolitical. I just want to understand how to hit, and how to teach hitting. I have been positively influenced by Jack, and by Batspeed. I would post in this forum far more often if it were real-time. While I understand what caused it not to be, I find it a cumbersome basis to learn and exchange ideas. I do spend some time every week or so and review a larger segment of material at once.)
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> I DEFINITELY recognize the intellectual property and differentiation Jack has built around THT. And I respect that. I respect the rights of others to do the same thing. Since I am NOT a lemming, it occurs to me that good ideas / concepts can come from more than one source. And like many in my position (volunteer coach w/ a passion for hitting), I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how the swing really works, not just accept how someone (any ONE person) tells me it works. So please bear with me.
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> Here are a couple of things I don't understand:
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> 1) Why anyone would confuse THT and scap loading, unless the point is simply obfuscaption. Scap loading - as indicated in the name - is a LOADING process. THT is an UNloading process. Torque is something you apply to swing, not to prepare to swing.
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> In and of themselves, this does not make either right or wrong. It DOES make them different.
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> 2) How it can be conclusively demonstrated that body adjustment to get on plane as the shoulders rotate can not attain - at least in SOME cases - the position often attributed as an EXCLUSIVE result of THT.
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> I do not question in the slightest the position of the body, arms, bat as elite hitters slot the elbow and attain "connection." It looks virtually the same in every top hitter. But I have a lot of clips where I personally see no evidence of top hand involvement in attaining the position. It appears to me more a by-product of posture and strong hip/torso/shoulder rotation. Could be my limitation or inability to see, and I freely acknowledge that.
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> IS the contending that the MLB "connection" position (slotted elbow into CHP) is universally applied and ALWAYS attained with the top hand "torqueing" movement? Because I'm not convinced that IS universal.
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> I guess my question is basically one of cause and effect. I THINK I believe that a hitter can attain the THT position demonstrated by John Elliot on The Final Arc DVD simply as a consequence of "drop and tilt" and shoulder rotation happening as the elbow is slotting.
> Some may attain it with the top hand, but I think others do so as a consequence of rotating and slotting.
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> Set me straight, please.
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> Regards,
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> Scott
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