Posted by: () on Wed Aug 4 18:51:08 2004

>>> Jack,
>
> When did I say natural hand action, or wrist action, doesn't take place.
>
> You are to caught up in THT and BHT to see if this is a good swing or bad swing. All you can see is how far the hands travel.
>
> ""But I can tell you this with certainty – No batter, regardless of who it is, can attain great bat speed by driving the top-hand in the same direction as the bottom-hand. Call it whatever you wish, but in order to generate maximum acceleration at initiation, the top-hand must pull in the opposite direction the bottom-hand is being pulled.""
>
> The top hand makes one rotational point. This can be clearly seen when a hitter doesn't have good rotation, but rotate the back leg only. The top hand pivot and sends the bathead back toward the catcher and then out away from the body. A clip would really up convey the words.
>
> If you are rotational the top hand will turn with rotation. It all depends on where the bathead is when rotation begins. If we have a swing to look at, like this one, it doesn't lie. Call it a good launch position with the bathead slightly cocked toward the pitcher, the forces at work in the hands are similar to what you describe, but, these forces are also how rotation works in the swing.
>
> The question is, and I think you would agree or can see, does he actively apply the forces you describe in this swing?
>
> The other rotational point is the lead shoulder.
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> If a hitter is truly launching his swing with rotation, or the lowerbody, wouldn't the forces acting on the hands be similar to what you describe??
>
> I can see how rotation works in this swing and how his hands are working. The bathead is thrown out of rotation, not by driving the hands forward or by taking them forward.
>
> What I'm trying to say is if your are truly rotational the swing will happen similar to what you say, if you are using the body to power your swing. I don't think there is a big mystery to applying forces correctly. I believe the hands will do the correct thing if you are launching your swing with the lowerbody. <<<
>
> Hi Shawn
>
> You stated, “You are to caught up in THT and BHT to see if this is a good swing or bad swing. All you can see is how far the hands travel.”
>
> The readers can judge your statement for themselves.
>
> All motion study tests we ran show the bottom-hand is a “rotational point” during initiation and THT. The top-hand becomes a “rotational point’’ later in the swing – during BHT.
>
> Shawn, many physic’s labs and myself as well maintain that there are two sources of energy acting on the bat that cause it to undergo angular displacement. One is generated strictly from the angular displacement rate of the hand-path (CHP – no torque from the hands involved).
>
> Therefore, you are correct in saying that the rotation of the shoulders alone induces an angular displacement rate of the bat-head, and therefore, of the hands (as a unit) as well. However, the bat speed generated from the hand-path alone can only account for about half the bat speed of a good rotational hitter.
>
> As I just explained, the rotation of the shoulders does cause the hands as a unit to also rotate during initiation. But each individual hand of the unit is also applying directional force at the handle as the unit rotates. The rotation of the body against the lead-arm will cause the direction of force of the bottom-hand to always be directed in an arc toward the pitcher. However, the direction of force each batter applies with the top-hand during initiation can vary immensely. The great hitters will be pulling the top-hand back at initiation – the average hitters will be driving it forward.
>
> Shawn, two batters can have almost identical launch positions, lower-body mechanics and shoulder rotation and yet have a great difference in the bat speed and power they produce. This is the reason I stated to you in my first post, "But I can tell you this with certainty – No batter, regardless of who it is, can attain great bat speed by driving the top-hand in the same direction as the bottom-hand. Call it whatever you wish, but in order to generate maximum acceleration at initiation, the top-hand must pull in the opposite direction the bottom-hand is being pulled.”
>
> You finished by stating, “What I'm trying to say is if your are truly rotational the swing will happen similar to what you say, if you are using the body to power your swing. I don't think there is a big mystery to applying forces correctly. I believe the hands will do the correct thing if you are launching your swing with the lowerbody.” – From doing video analysis of hundreds of swings sent to me (Little League to college players), I can assure you that regardless of their lower-body mechanics, pulling the top-hand back during initiation is not their natural tendency.
>
> Jack Mankin
>
>

Jack,

What studies have concluded that top hand acts as a rotational point later in the swing?

View the clip I posted, the top hand is acting as a rotational point very early in the swing. Anytime we rotate the top hand wants to turn. I can show this in amutuers, where the top hand turning doesn't result in the best swing because of poor rotation.

You say that the forces at work are not natural. People can have good lowerbody rotation and poor transfer mechanics. Just because someone turns the body parts, doesn't mean they have good rotation. There has to be a good connection throughout the body that transfers
all the energy to the arms. If people have poor transfer mechanics, my first guess is they are not allowing the body to swing the bat. There are some 'ifs' whenever we take about the energies and transfer to the bathead.

Let me say this, In my swing I don't think about the transfer mechanics and it's not to bad for someone who doesn't swing all to often. The transfer mechanics resemble those of a good hitter, Bonds, Alex, Tejada. I can see where I can improve with my hands drifting upwards a little, but the swing is good.

There are no studies that have concluded what the rotational points are in the swing. It doesn't take any special studies to see the elbow/tophand relationship to rotation. The other rotational point is the bottom hand and lead shoulder. The arms rotational point is the mass (hips/shoulders) and the front knee (or front foot). The arms follow these rotational points.

Again, if you just look at the clip I posted and watch the relationship between rotation and the top hand (bathead), you will see the top hand acting (and elbow) acting as a rotational point in the swing.

I'm not making this stuff up. You can either see it or choose not to see it.

Shawn