Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Tue Oct 24 12:36:14 2000

rql....i would appreciate your thoughts on this one...maybe it's just an off-the-wall hunch that should be discarded but here goes........in your stance just turn and "throw" your hand at the ball (or better yet, at a punching bag!)....notice how physiogically natural it is for the hand to initially go out and away from the body..... (and also notice that you are "pushing" the hand toward the target).....now do the same thing except do it with the bottom arm.....notice that the natural thing that the arm wants do do is via the front elbow, bend & pull in toward the body....also notice that you are pulling, not pushing.....in my quest to resolve the problems we previously discussed i think the more understanding i have of the physiological factors, the better....your comments please.....respectfully, grc..... Grc,I believe you are talking about "but as you swing the bottom hand and elbow goes to the plane of the ball.So im a little confused, it seems like your top hand your describing with the swing and bottom hand and elbow is with prelaunch movements.Also throwing the hand at a punching bag [the top hand] is this like a swing or a left hook or do you mean an overhand punch.Sorry for misunderstanding.RQL sorry for the confusing post..... "the motion of the hands during the swing where the top hand punches forward and the bottom hand and elbow pulls toward the ball"....that's what i mean, i think........but........"when the back elbow raises the bottom elbow bends and pulls toward the body" ....i think i disagree with that...to the contrary the high elbow SEEMS to have the opposite effect: causing more circular hand path & less bending of the front elbow (which leads to linear)......throwing hand at punching bag, but with palm up/palm down (depending on which hand used)......i guess my whole point is this: top hand, more natural for hand to want to take a circular hand path....bottom hand, more natural for it to want to go linear....so, of course when bottom arm is the dominent arm you-know-what happens......respectfully, grc.... I now follow the movements of the hands your talking about and elbows and agree,but does the straightening of the bottom elbow cause linear ,maybe,I dont know,my problemsI believe stemmed from swinging inside out for life where the lead arm would control the swing longer and on top of it the lead arm was dominant. A double whammy against you for pulling.Increasing the strength of the top hand and maybe more important increasing the cue of the punching affect earlier of the top hand and the twisting of the hips and shoulders quick allowing that bat to come around.[Look away and react in] was my mental thought often when I hit,given the right situation at bat.It could be your right that the straightening of the bottom elbow may lead to linear movements I just never looked at it being the culprit.Keep me informed of formings. .............................. ............................................ ...rql...."increasing the cue of the punching affect earlier of the top hand"...that's one of the possibilities i have been investigating and after the lengthy discussion at setpro on Jack's use of the high elbow, i'm becoming increwasingly convinced that the high elbow could be a critical part of the solution.....respectfully, grc......p.s. comments from JACK, MAJOR DAN, TOM.GUERRY, JOE A & everyone else greatly appreciated......

RQL,grc-*****DANGER****LENGTHY POST****

We are getting into deep detail with "cues" here to the point that they will have very individualized interpretations for different hitters.I think it would be useful to back up a little and see if there is agreement on the underlying reality of how we think the swing should be produced/progress,then see if the cues are likely to be interpreted this way which would facilitate learning.

In my interpretation of the reality described by Jack,the swing is ballistic and subject to very little useful adjustment after the projectile(bat)has been launched.Such adjustments also require exceptional arm strength and experience and probably still necessitate great reduction in batspeed(power),but sometimes a "cue shot" can still be productive.

It is therefore crucial to have things in good position and moving together well AT launch.This should include ability to use top hand torque at or before the hands start forward,the bat being on plane as the hands start forward and the hands starting and maintaining a circular path to contact.

Now we really get into Tom's personal conjecture/hypothesis about how the swing progresses.When I follow Jack's advice to keep the feel of smooth acceleration and when I am not fooled by the pitch,I not infrequently launch a really good swing.This is analagous to playing golf and having a horrible round and getting to the last hole and hitting a perfect drive which makes you want to play again right after you have spent hours humiliating yourself.Since I have followed Jack's ideas,the memorable,effortless swings that produce long hard hits are not so uncommon anymore(they were extremely rare before and never reproducible) with much better plate coverage.How successful I am at teaching this remains to be seen,but signs are that I am communicating successful mechanics much better than I have in the past because I understand better what I am trying to accomplish with cues,and I can see it on video and with results of the swing.

Cues for after launch-

Since the initiation of the swing is more critical,I find cues less useful for later phases of the swing and they have more to do with maintaining what is started at launch-continuing the hanpath circle until the bottom hand is pulled back to the catcher,maintaining the spine angle(bend at waist) that gets things on plane by launch,keeping the front arm on plane/perpendicular to spine,keeping the bottom palm facing down through contact,etc.Things like "turn and throw" or "punch with the hands"or"pull with the front elbow" don't seem to capture the right idea.These cues are likely to straighten the handpath by causing extension of the front elbow after launch or premature extension of the back elbow.You want to get maximum batspeed early.I suspect the max is mostly approached before the back arm has begun to extend out of the "L" position.One cue some use for this is "maintaining the box"-a description of how the arms fix the hand position to the shoulder turn to allow the shoulders to drive the hands in the circular path to contact.The box breaks down only as the back arm extends out of the "L".This happens when the back forearm is pointed to the pitcher for the inside location,but after much less shoulder rotation for the outside.The feeling that goes along with this extending of the back arm is one similar to what is referred to in golf as"releasing the club head".In other words,the club has sped up and is now pulling the hands,the hands are not actively accelerating the club significantly.What adds or continues batspeed at this point is maintenance of the circular hand path which the body seems(to me) to have a natural inclination to do once things have been set in motion correctly.Cues like "rotate around a stationary axis" and "pull the bottom hand back to the catcher on the inside pitch" seem to be enough to keep the handpath circular to contact,even though the body sometimes has to bend the front elbow or really lean back as the front shoulder comes back to do this.
For the outside location,the body learns a different feel for the motor program to match up to this location.The tophand torque/turning of the bat proceeds more relative to when the shoulders start driving the circular handpath.This corresponds to"keeping the hands back" with the feeling of "releasing" the club/bat("L" coming out of back elbow)well before contact.Again,the surprising thing is that things tend to go well if launch was good,or in Jack's words "just let it happen".You can overdo the use of cues here.

Cues before launch-

The reality you are trying to achieve is to allow top hand torque and encourage the circular hand path.Lowering the raised back elbow can assist top hand torque,but to do so the top hand grip needs to let the fingers pull back on the bat to start it torquing and must allow "slippage" as the swing progresses.The elbow should be back down as the handpath starts.The hands and shoulders need to start and continue moving as a unit(maintain the box) until the batspeed builds to the point of"releasing"("L" starts coming out of back elbow/box no longer maintained).Slippage allows torque to progress smoothly powered by bottom hand pulling in a circular path driven by the attachment of the front arm to the torso(not by pulling with the front elbow)and turning of the top hand/back forearm WITHOUT premature extension of the back arm(maintaining the "L").
I do not think the top hand naturally wants to start out circular.It naturally wants to sequentially whip as in throwing which prematurely extends the back elbow and straightens the hand path.This premature extension is perhaps the most difficult thing to teach.The front arm naturally wants to do the same like a frisbee throw.This needs to be prevented by taking the slack out of the front arm prelaunch and fixing it to the front torso where it stays to maintain the circle until contact.
I think what encourages the circular hand path is getting the hands up behind the head at launch after a good inward shoulder turn(not having the elbow up).It is then more natural for the handpath to bestarted by torso/shoulder rotation.This is also reinforced by having the bat in the plane of the front arm.Ideally the front arm is perpendicular to the upper spine and on plane because there is the right amount of bend in the waist at launch.

Thanks for plowing through all this.Is this a reality you would like to accomoplish with cues?Which cues work for you?