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Re: Re: Re: Top-Hand-Torque clarification

Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Mon May 24 01:33:00 2004

>>> Please disregard if you can't stand me beating this kinesiological dead horse yet again

The "archer/bow"type action is mainly the horizontal adduction that nyman relates to "scap loading".To my mind,this cocks the bat mostly toward the pitcher.It does sweep the bat in this direction then starts back toward the catcher a little,but I really do not think of this as significantly accelerating the bat back to the catcher.I do believe in the importance
of applying torque in the preswing/early swing before and after the toso begins to turn.I do think this THT is created by the correct beginning of slotting of the back elbow which is primarily via external rotation of the back arm (NOT shoulder,but external rotation of back arm in shoulder socket) while the back scap conitnues to pinch (horizontally adduct) toward the spine.The other important part of this torque is applied by the bottom hand(not caused by but applied through) largely due to INternal rotation of the lead arm in the lead shoulder socket (cue-lead arm works up a little).

This is the way the body wants to use the muscles to apply these forces and they can be simply demonstrated in person without necessarily calling them complicated things.It is very difficult to communicate in words,and even with pictures,you have to learn and trust the feel and either agree or disagree whether you think the muscles creating theses motions are being used.

Sorry for being so dense, <<<

Hi Tom:

First let me say that I have only fair knowledge of kinesiology. Therefore I am careful to judge the accuracy of Nyman’s description of “scap loading,” other than to note that it seems to produce the same shoulder and a forearm movement as I described with THT. THT is applied by the pulling back on the bat by the back-shoulder, arm, elbow, forearm and top hand in an arc toward the catcher, which is very similar to his depiction of “scap loading,” as you have described.

Nyman’s animated drawings of an archer pulling back on the bowstring only shows the abducting of the back-shoulder (rotating away from midline) where the top-hand pulls the string only part way back. However, to pull the string to full draw, the shoulder is adducting as it rotates past the perpendicular to the midline point. His drawings gave the impression that in my analogy of the archer pulling back on the bowstring, there was no adducting or “scap loading” - as he defines it. That is a misrepresentation.

I also think Paul made contradictory statements. He proclaims loudly that “top-hand-torque does not exist.” Then he showed a clip of a batter he claimed had many problems because he was applying Jack Mankin’s top-hand-torque. – Oddly, the clip shows a batter with problems similar to the problem A-Rod was having earlier in the season. I think it would be interesting for Paul to point out where this batter IS applying THT and A-Rod is not.

I have often given Paul credit for coining the term “hook” in the hand-path. I have always described the point in the hand-path where maximum angular displacement of the bat occurs as “the pulling back of the lead-hand toward the catcher as the lead-shoulder rotates to the 105 degree position.” Obviously, referring to it as the “hook” in the hand-path is descriptive and easier to use – credit to Paul Nyman.

My problem with Nyman position on this subject is, and has always been, in his drawings and words, he depicts “scap loading” as accelerating the top-hand and bat-head back toward the catcher. While at the same time he denies that torque or the pulling back of the top-hand was a factor in accelerating the bat-head. There is an inconsistency here that he needs to address and that is the reason why I posed the questions regarding scap loading that have still not been answered.

Tom you stated, “This is the way the body wants to use the muscles to apply these forces and they can be simply demonstrated in person without necessarily calling them complicated things.” I fully agree. I can convey the different “scap loading” movements to a batter with a simple “shrug” or “un-shrugging” shoulder demonstration.

Jack Mankin


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