Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Feb 11 09:49:27 2004

>>> I agree with the back-side through the front-side terminolgy, I find it helpful in teaching the BHT Jack has described. As far as the legs go for me....get the swing plane right and the legs do the right thing.....problem I see is that most don't have the swing plane right placing the legs into the act of compensation (for balance). However, if one was having success with driving the back knee down, I'd stick with it, especially if my buddy RQL is likes it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Had a youngster tell me the other day....you know what it's not front-side or back-side, it's shoulders as a unit. I said "exactly!" this is coming from a kid who used to pull the bat with his front side, by trying to turn the lead shoulder back or by pulling the lead arm. It's not always as simple, but in this particular case, we worked (in slow motion) the act of driving the backside throught the front and feeling the bat-head release, through BHT. The transformation has been miraculous for him. We never talked about the legs. Bat/Shoulders must work as a unit in my opinion.....same plane. So I think that on lower pitches there will be some spine tilt....certainly more than would be on a high pitch. Bonds definitly does this!
> > > > >
> > > > > Think shoulders/bathead same plane....get BHT torque right to feel the bathead release (as Jack has stated) and the legs will work correctly. <<<
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Coach C
> > > > >
> > > > > Well stated. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to apply forces to the bat that generate maximum acceleration of the bat-head into a predicable swing plane. If accelerating the bat-head is not foremost in the batters practice sessions, he may wind up with good hip and shoulder rotation but a bat that lags behind. --- "Of what use is a 1000 HP engine .. if the transmission slips."
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Jack!!! It was nice to meet you...take care!!
> > > >
> > > > Coach C
> > > > >
> > >
> > > I would agree when things go well there is the "connected feel" of the shoulders/arms/hands/bat getting loccked together for the last bit of coiling and the first part of uncoiling.Then connection is continued through contact with the lead shoulder pull back/bht/handpath hook .
> > >
> > > Epstein talks about a "one-piece" feel similar to the takeaway in golf,but I think this takeaway(initial inward turn) happens with a different feel in hitting.I feel the takeaway as a 2 piece action (first piece is internal rotation of back arm with hip cock,second piece is scap load as stride foot goes out)then comes the gradual establishment of the one-piece feel as you rotate into toe touch and drop and tilt.
> > >
> > > Here's a setpro thread with a golf plane rear shot of aaron:
> > >
> > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000200#000001
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > He gets on top of pitch, flattening out the swing. The extra up is from getting on top of the pitch.
> >
> > Back side or front side. The last clip of Aaron shows everything starting off the backside and finishing off the frontside. What I like about this clip is his forward momentum is caused from the work done on the backside and the 'stride' has nothing to do with how far forward he travels. The stride foot/knee are cocking backwards and not just reaching or striding.
> >
> > But'', his rotation is more like a spring action (coiling and uncoiling), as compared to foot or leg cues (using both legs as an example).
> >
> > He is, does or did, step into the swing so to speak. Or the hips were initiated in the stride like he said.
> >
> > But, I've seen very few who swung like Aaron (coiled, uncoiled).
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > P.S. This is one way to convert momentum.
> >
> > Dear Shawn and Jack,
>
> I think this topic is interesting, but would like to point out in "Get Your Arms Extended," the correct position for the middle-in pitch is front leg straight, back leg in an "L" position at contact. If you can attain this position at "crunch time," does it matter what "mental cues" one uses to attain it? Just a thought.
>
> Secondly, I would like to defend my logic. According to Newtown's law of physics, for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction.
>
> If the equal but opposite reaction (i.e., hip rotation) by landing on the ball of the front foot, opening it 45+ degrees, and dropping the heel, I propose the following measures:
>
> 1) Roll onto the outside part of the front heel. This should occur naturally, since the weight distribution of both feet are equal but opposite. By this I mean that if the front foot does not roll, the weight will not "favor the outside of the back toe [on the back foot] during the follow through," as Steve Ferroli notices in Hit Your Potential. This mean hip rotation will be truncated, unless this movement occurs during the swing.
>
> 2) Turn the back foot and raise the back heel slightly. If the front foot drops and turns, then so too the back foot. If this does not occur, rotation will not but be stationary, but will take place around the backside.
>
> 3) Turn the back knee down and in. It makes sense that if the front leg straightens, causing the front knee to rotate up and away, it must be counterbalanced by a back knee turning down and in.
>
> 4) Turn the back hip around its axis. The front hip must rotate around its axis at the same rate of the back hip. If it does not, there is no harm in turning it proactively.
>
> These equal but opposites cause rotation around a stationary axis.
>
> Hope it becomes clear.
>
> Sincerely,
> BHL
> Knight1285@aol.com
>
>

Jack,Shawn,BHL,Coach C,et al-

This is an excellent thread.

here is an interesting setpro thread that includes the description of the development of a player who had a fairly successful first year in mlb last year as switch hitter with some pop for the Dbacks.He has had a fairly typical development through backfoot hitting,then the Lau frontfoot and extension phase and then,with input from Nyman,a quicker rotational phase primarily via the swing thought of getting a good scap load and then full rotation.

As Nyman explains in this thread,the Lau approach (which includes turning over the back foot/heel to sky,etc) does not get very directly at better hip/torso/separation/coil/uncoil.

Things like BHL describes can be useful guardrails to expedite trial and error learning,but what is necessary is the right kind of body/hip/torso coiling and uncoiling that demands this kind of lower body support.As you develop better mechanics/increased "degrees of freedom" the inage and vision of what you do evolves as do your swing thoughts/feel and swing keys.

Nyman points out another key here which is "showing the front sole".This is part of the feel necessary to coordinate/synchronize/"map" the upper and lower body.A good ongoing upper body scap load happens at the same time that you finish "rotating into toe touch" with "mapped"/synchronized external rotation of the lead leg without losing hip cock/load(not crashing into foot plant or striding THEN rotationg or reaching out the front leg so you lose hip cock/straighten the front knee and don't "show sole").

I think it is much more useful as you progress to become aware of this upper/lower body synchronization than focussing just on lower body front and back working together.

It alos helps to think of the swing as Nyman does as a load/unload cycle.It is still very complicated becasue the final torsion/twist and untwist or load and unload cycles overlap/superimpose.

You load the scap and shpow the sole as you rotate into toe touch balanced with the weight slightly forward.This stretches the muscles (if you don't interrupt/lose hip cock or upper body loading)on the diagonal so when you do drop and tilt you feel the stretch as a cord connecting the front heel to the back shoulder(an Epsetin cue evn Nyman likes-or at least liked at some point).

The drop and tilt is the "trigger" to start the unloading cycle after the GO decision is made,BUT,even though it requires ground up force application and balance,the coil/load continues/overlaps the unload program.This results in the xfactor stretch which is the final quick stretching of the torso that gives the feel of front side firmup going up the front side of the torso(not the front knee straightening type front side firmup interpretation of Peavey/?Lau).This is also the time of the launch(not pre-launch) THT.

Hip and torso awareness is very important here.I have not seen Dixon's newer stuff,but it sounds torso centric which would make sense (the religious derivation proposed by Dixon may have less universal appeal/applicability).

So I think it's important to remember that these "L"/foot rollover and other such cues are secondary/limited/reactive to some degree.The overall development of coiling and uncoiling and staying connected(getting extended is also a suboptimal/indirect way of encouraging connection as pointed out by Jack) are more fundamental/closer approaches to reality(but you will never really get reality or truth,keep trying).

I don't find Aaron atypical,just more advanced/more of a master.The point about the stride/weight shift is that his center of gravity goes quite a ways,then he sets up a stable axis of rotation.He creates a lot of linear momentum,then becomes purely rotational.He must have transformed some of that efficiently into rotational momentum.The handpath hook can not be ,physically, top hand push.It has to be bottom hand hook maintaining connection/shrinking the swing radius.He gets up right well be using some of the linear momentum to assist getting the axis up/getting less flex at the waist and boosting the hips open while he has great uper body/back scap load.

He coils and uncoils well and quickly with a short radius/hooking handpath and an upright axis.This is part of giving the "shallow U" type shape of getting on top or setting your sites high,etc.

here is the "holy grail" post(can't get away from that religion thing)



http://www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000681