Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Feb 11 19:51:04 2004

>>> I agree with the back-side through the front-side terminolgy, I find it
helpful in teaching the BHT Jack has described. As far as the legs go for
me....get the swing plane right and the legs do the right thing.....problem I see
is that most don't have the swing plane right placing the legs into the act of
compensation (for balance). However, if one was having success with driving
the back knee down, I'd stick with it, especially if my buddy RQL is likes it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Had a youngster tell me the other day....you know what it's not
front-side or back-side, it's shoulders as a unit. I said "exactly!" this is coming
from a kid who used to pull the bat with his front side, by trying to turn the lead
shoulder back or by pulling the lead arm. It's not always as simple, but in this
particular case, we worked (in slow motion) the act of driving the backside
throught the front and feeling the bat-head release, through BHT. The
transformation has been miraculous for him. We never talked about the legs.
Bat/Shoulders must work as a unit in my opinion.....same plane. So I think that
on lower pitches there will be some spine tilt....certainly more than would be
on a high pitch. Bonds definitly does this!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Think shoulders/bathead same plane....get BHT torque right to
feel the bathead release (as Jack has stated) and the legs will work correctly.
<<<
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Coach C
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well stated. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to
apply forces to the bat that generate maximum acceleration of the bat-head
into a predicable swing plane. If accelerating the bat-head is not foremost in
the batters practice sessions, he may wind up with good hip and shoulder
rotation but a bat that lags behind. --- "Of what use is a 1000 HP engine .. if
the transmission slips."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Jack!!! It was nice to meet you...take care!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Coach C
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would agree when things go well there is the "connected feel" of
the shoulders/arms/hands/bat getting loccked together for the last bit of coiling
and the first part of uncoiling.Then connection is continued through contact
with the lead shoulder pull back/bht/handpath hook .
> > > > >
> > > > > Epstein talks about a "one-piece" feel similar to the takeaway in
golf,but I think this takeaway(initial inward turn) happens with a different feel
in hitting.I feel the takeaway as a 2 piece action (first piece is internal rotation
of back arm with hip cock,second piece is scap load as stride foot goes
out)then comes the gradual establishment of the one-piece feel as you rotate
into toe touch and drop and tilt.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a setpro thread with a golf plane rear shot of aaron:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=
000200#000001
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom,
> > > >
> > > > He gets on top of pitch, flattening out the swing. The extra up is from
getting on top of the pitch.
> > > >
> > > > Back side or front side. The last clip of Aaron shows everything starting
off the backside and finishing off the frontside. What I like about this clip is his
forward momentum is caused from the work done on the backside and the
'stride' has nothing to do with how far forward he travels. The stride foot/knee
are cocking backwards and not just reaching or striding.
> > > >
> > > > But'', his rotation is more like a spring action (coiling and uncoiling), as
compared to foot or leg cues (using both legs as an example).
> > > >
> > > > He is, does or did, step into the swing so to speak. Or the hips were
initiated in the stride like he said.
> > > >
> > > > But, I've seen very few who swung like Aaron (coiled, uncoiled).
> > > >
> > > > Shawn
> > > >
> > > > P.S. This is one way to convert momentum.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Shawn and Jack,
> > >
> > > I think this topic is interesting, but would like to point out in "Get Your
Arms Extended," the correct position for the middle-in pitch is front leg straight,
back leg in an "L" position at contact. If you can attain this position at "crunch
time," does it matter what "mental cues" one uses to attain it? Just a thought.
> > >
> > > Secondly, I would like to defend my logic. According to Newtown's law
of physics, for every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction.
> > >
> > > If the equal but opposite reaction (i.e., hip rotation) by landing on the ball
of the front foot, opening it 45+ degrees, and dropping the heel, I propose the
following measures:
> > >
> > > 1) Roll onto the outside part of the front heel. This should occur
naturally, since the weight distribution of both feet are equal but opposite. By
this I mean that if the front foot does not roll, the weight will not "favor the
outside of the back toe [on the back foot] during the follow through," as Steve
Ferroli notices in Hit Your Potential. This mean hip rotation will be truncated,
unless this movement occurs during the swing.
> > >
> > > 2) Turn the back foot and raise the back heel slightly. If the front foot
drops and turns, then so too the back foot. If this does not occur, rotation will
not but be stationary, but will take place around the backside.
> > >
> > > 3) Turn the back knee down and in. It makes sense that if the front leg
straightens, causing the front knee to rotate up and away, it must be
counterbalanced by a back knee turning down and in.
> > >
> > > 4) Turn the back hip around its axis. The front hip must rotate around its
axis at the same rate of the back hip. If it does not, there is no harm in turning
it proactively.
> > >
> > > These equal but opposites cause rotation around a stationary axis.
> > >
> > > Hope it becomes clear.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > BHL
> > > Knight1285@aol.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Jack,Shawn,BHL,Coach C,et al-
> >
> > This is an excellent thread.
> >
> > here is an interesting setpro thread that includes the description of the
development of a player who had a fairly successful first year in mlb last year
as switch hitter with some pop for the Dbacks.He has had a fairly typical
development through backfoot hitting,then the Lau frontfoot and extension
phase and then,with input from Nyman,a quicker rotational phase primarily
via the swing thought of getting a good scap load and then full rotation.
> >
> > As Nyman explains in this thread,the Lau approach (which includes
turning over the back foot/heel to sky,etc) does not get very directly at better
hip/torso/separation/coil/uncoil.
> >
> > Things like BHL describes can be useful guardrails to expedite trial and
error learning,but what is necessary is the right kind of body/hip/torso coiling
and uncoiling that demands this kind of lower body support.As you develop
better mechanics/increased "degrees of freedom" the inage and vision of
what you do evolves as do your swing thoughts/feel and swing keys.
> >
> > Nyman points out another key here which is "showing the front sole".This
is part of the feel necessary to coordinate/synchronize/"map" the upper and
lower body.A good ongoing upper body scap load happens at the same time
that you finish "rotating into toe touch" with "mapped"/synchronized external
rotation of the lead leg without losing hip cock/load(not crashing into foot plant
or striding THEN rotationg or reaching out the front leg so you lose hip cock/
straighten the front knee and don't "show sole").
> >
> > I think it is much more useful as you progress to become aware of this
upper/lower body synchronization than focussing just on lower body front and
back working together.
> >
> > It alos helps to think of the swing as Nyman does as a load/unload cycle.It
is still very complicated becasue the final torsion/twist and untwist or load and
unload cycles overlap/superimpose.
> >
> > You load the scap and shpow the sole as you rotate into toe touch
balanced with the weight slightly forward.This stretches the muscles (if you
don't interrupt/lose hip cock or upper body loading)on the diagonal so when
you do drop and tilt you feel the stretch as a cord connecting the front heel to
the back shoulder(an Epsetin cue evn Nyman likes-or at least liked at some
point).
> >
> > The drop and tilt is the "trigger" to start the unloading cycle after the GO
decision is made,BUT,even though it requires ground up force application
and balance,the coil/load continues/overlaps the unload program.This results
in the xfactor stretch which is the final quick stretching of the torso that gives
the feel of front side firmup going up the front side of the torso(not the front
knee straightening type front side firmup interpretation of Peavey/?Lau).This
is also the time of the launch(not pre-launch) THT.
> >
> > Hip and torso awareness is very important here.I have not seen Dixon's
newer stuff,but it sounds torso centric which would make sense (the religious
derivation proposed by Dixon may have less universal appeal/applicability).
> >
> > So I think it's important to remember that these "L"/foot rollover and other
such cues are secondary/limited/reactive to some degree.The overall
development of coiling and uncoiling and staying connected(getting extended
is also a suboptimal/indirect way of encouraging connection as pointed out by
Jack) are more fundamental/closer approaches to reality(but you will never
really get reality or truth,keep trying).
> >
> > I don't find Aaron atypical,just more advanced/more of a master.The point
about the stride/weight shift is that his center of gravity goes quite a ways,then
he sets up a stable axis of rotation.He creates a lot of linear momentum,then
becomes purely rotational.He must have transformed some of that efficiently
into rotational momentum.The handpath hook can not be ,physically, top hand
push.It has to be bottom hand hook maintaining connection/shrinking the
swing radius.He gets up right well be using some of the linear momentum to
assist getting the axis up/getting less flex at the waist and boosting the hips
open while he has great uper body/back scap load.
> >
> > He coils and uncoils well and quickly with a short radius/hooking
handpath and an upright axis.This is part of giving the "shallow U" type shape
of getting on top or setting your sites high,etc.
> >
> > here is the "holy grail" post(can't get away from that religion thing)
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000681
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Lot's of info. I have found the more I try to do the longer the swing sequence.
I can't even compare to ML'ers quickness while trying to do to much.
>
> It's to easy to increase loading time, which seems to mess up the weight
shift timing or getting to a balanced position while still coiling (a good hitting
position).
>
> While I like the coiling and uncoiling information, it's easy to over do it. It's
also easy to start turning the shoulders to much, inward turn, etc.
>
> What I read in that thread was Kata did the same things he always has, only
he started to focus on the hips (pelvis, midsection) and some scapula loading.
Getting the merry go round going and letting rotation bring the hands forward
(keeping the hands inside the ball), and keeping the hands back.
>
> The information on rotation starting from the mid section simplified
everything he was trying to do with the feet and legs. And it's the only way I
can get the same quickness as an ML'er. Along the same lines scapula
loading simplified the loading the hands. Thus keeping the hands back and
allowing rotation to initiate the swing, they both go hand and hand.
>
> Shawn
>
> P.S. why does Hank top hand (arm) extend after contact (last clip)?
>

The last/3rd clip shows a prominant handpath hook.If he maxes out batspeed
at contact then immediately after,the arms are coasting/releasing,but up until
then the bottom hand has been shaping the handpath/staying connected/
causing the bat to turn about a point closer and closer to the knob,maybe
even on to the knob/top hand along for ride.Then just after contact,both arms
cast and wrists roll.

this looks very different from a swing/followthrough when the top hand is
pushing at contact as opposed to being more along for the ride with
lengthening of the radius to the center of rotation and deceleration of the
bathead before contact.