Posted by: Coach C () on Sun Jan 4 14:08:47 2004

>>> Jack,
>
> We do not agree on the point you make "That natural instinct to fire the hands ahead of rotation is a major reason 99% of players never become great hitters".
>
> I think the majority of poor hitters use legs (but are not aware of it) ahead of hands, but then the new breed rotational coach say's too much hands.
>
> Often times it's the improper use of the legs that leaves the player with only the hands to hit with. In my opinion, it is the biggest problem in coaching analysis....seeing the hands work independently in the swing and then finding fault with them.....normally it's a misdiagnosis, which is why I've questioned your teaching methods....and some of your theories. I think we see similar things in the swing, but what these players are doing has yet to be proven by you or me.
>
> This is why many great hitters say they use their hands in the swing. It's what they don't say that is significant....what they do not say is that they use the lower half differently than everyone else...they aren't aware of it. The hands are the engine, but only when used properly with the body.
>
> The legs should not be taught to turn, push or drive....there is no significant batspeed gain and what little that may be percieved is only being misdirected away from the hitting area.
>
> The majority of amateur hitters sway the hips before they hit...this is what 99% of poor hitters do. That's not a hands problem.
>
> My students would suffer dearly with any thought of driving with the legs or starting the swing with the legs. Their focus must be on learning how to stabalize the lower half correctly, so that the hands can do their job.
>
> Happy New Year Jack!! <<<
>
>
> Hi Coach C
>
> You stated, “In my opinion, it is the biggest problem in coaching analysis....seeing the hands work independently in the swing and then finding fault with them.
>
> The only force the hands themselves can exert on the bat is the grip. They have absolutely no means to move or apply force that accelerates the bat-head without shoulder rotation and the arms either pushing or pulling them (the small muscle groups in the wrist can only add minimal torque). I have always maintained that the top-hand is being pulled back during pre-launch and initiation of shoulder rotation.
>
> (1) Are you saying the hands (as a unit) should be thrust forward by the arms before (or during) shoulder rotation?
>
> You also stated, “The legs should not be taught to turn, push or drive....there is no significant batspeed gain and what little that may be percieved is only being misdirected away from the hitting area”.
>
> (2) Are you saying the legs should contribute little or nothing to hip and shoulder rotation?
>
> Jack Mankin
> Shoulders/arms/hands are a unit. If the hands work together they are the engine that drive all of it. One hand is not more dominate than the other, they work as a unit to supply batspeed. My grip is light, but firm to hold on to the bat. Where I'm confusing you is that you equate hands to some sort of wrist flip or snapping wrists V-shaping the swing plane (I think). When I supply hand speed my wrists are passive....the wrists are not thrown into flat, but rather a smooth, gradual roll. Flat hands means nothing to me, it just happens.

I'm saying the legs only contribution to hip and shoulder rotation as to support it or put another way....a brace to allow the rotation of the upper half to take place. The hips must engage correctly in the hip sockets for the torso to do it's work correctly. There is no appreciable batspeed gained from the legs.....so the legs provide zero batspeed, but when they try they can certainly create changing spine angles, excessive head movement, distorted views of the ball.

Jack....in my opinion....great hitters engage the hip sockets differently than you teach......unless I'm misunderstanding you. Toe touch is balony (I'm not saying you said that)!!!! It's foot strike!! This is why some hitters look excessive with the legs and others are unbelievably quiet......none if it matters if the hip sockets brake the upper half properly. I would not advocate using the legs, but rather how to set the legs correctly.

I made this point to you a long time ago, but a great hitter could do fairly well on an ice lake, but a poor hitter would fall as the front foot lands. I set my feet to hit, most don't!

I think we're so much a like, but our teaching methods are way different. I would never teach anyone to turn....turning takes place properly when the hip sockets engage correctly. After getting the hip sockets to engage correctly, then we are free to swing with fast arms and hands....which in truth is torso and shoulder speed. However the shoulders will only go as fast as the person swings their hands.....which comes first......the chicken or the egg. In this case the hands are the engine!!!

Your thoughts..........I can prove this to you if you come down to SoCal and see me!

Yes the top hand works back first, but it is not something that should be taught....it's natural. I think hitting is made way to complicated, but I love the discussion, because I don't think I know it all!

Coach C