Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Tue Oct 9 13:43:55 2007

Jack-

Thanks for the reply.
I think it's hard to bridge the gap between internal/feel and external/4D reality.

The feel of turning the hips and torquing the handle as the active area of focus/emphasis will tend to create a quicker/spatially earlier/better segmented swing in my opinion than focus on actively turning from middle out or focussing on actively turning the torso or shoulders.

Is there any evidence my position makes sense ?

Only in golf where actively/primarily turning the upper torso/shoulders will force swinging over the top UNLESS you bend way over at the waist which forces a very different type of overall rotation that does not work for the mlb swing which requires on the fly adjustability.

It CAN be made to work in golf where reaction time is not an issue, but the pattern of rotation is VERY different between this newer Hogan/"1plane"pattern (shoulders actively swing arms and club in shoulder turn plane on downstroke to contact) vs the old fashioned Bobby Jones 2 plane swing where swing plane is a blend of a separate body turn plane and arm swing plane with shoulders having a more passive role.

Beyond this, IF in hitting you have to use the shoulders to tilt in support of the hands creating resistance, it is hard to see how you can at the same time focus on turning the shoulders. However, you can torque tha handle and tilt the shoulders while also trying to turn the HIPS fully in response.

So in essence, the golf info suggests (over years of teaching many golfers via different cues AND backed up by data in reseacrh especially by the Titleist company which I have not had adequate access to) that focus on active turning of upper torso and especially shoulders forces an out to in slicing plane which is the equivalent of preventing "early batspeed" if used in the high level hitting or golf "2Plane" type swings.

Twisting (internally rotating lead arm in shoulder socket) the lead arm and tilting the shoulders is a different way of using the arm/shoulder that is incompatible with turning the shoulders actively in my opinion.

That is enough confirmation for me, but it is admittedly not great scientific evidence.