Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Sat Feb 1 12:04:54 2003

i posted the following comments january 31 and am carrying over to feb...regarding your commebts about "lean back" i said the following:
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> You may have answered an earlier question I had regarding "weathervaning". I don't really understand the concept, especially as articulated by Epstein, but I think i can relate to your reference to "lean back".....
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> question....when does the "lean back" start? and under what circumstances?....for example, only on inside pitches, only on low pitches?.....when the pitch is recognized?.....before stride foot lands?....after stride foot lands but before heel plant?......
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> your elaboration would be greatly appreciated....

This may be the only post of the month after people try to wade through this.Danger,many details of questionable relevance.

I can only get a handle on these things via skill to skill,even sport to sport comparisons.In this case I will try to stick to baseball.

Keep in mind some Nymanisms:

Training types think of the body as having 430 muscles.They all have to work together for any activity.

Even if you adhere to all the necessary "scientific" mechanics principles,there are infinite ways to execute a good swing.

Motor studies show no two swings of a given person are the same.

(and probably most important,your body will learn to optimize whatever you and your coach-conscious or unconscious "intent")-choose as your task,a truly scary thought)

The swing is also very fluid and can only be thought of as many things happening at once with variability in how things mix/connect/overlap.This is especially true when talking about "lean"/posture and adjustments.So-

How the body sets up it's axis and posture adjustment is incredibly variable.Jack has studied stuff to death and found the imprtance of stable axis at launch,circular handpath and bat turning throughout swing starting early,but couldn't find anything near an 'absolute' for this body/posture stuff.

I think in both hitting and throwing you have to set up/store energy in the form of your center of gravity moving in some sort of predictable way that can be harnessed to amplify(when applied right) all the other body actions superimposed over this.First think of throwing.

In pitching,Nyman has the following model of torso motion during a pitch:

flatbed-the center of gravity/body moving forward and down until resistance at foot plant

on the flatbed is the merry-go-round which rotates,then transitions into the ferris wheel.

the body is started forward(flatbed),then there is stretching and sequenced rotation in 3 dimensions which creates and transfers momentum via muscle action and bone/connective tissue joint levers to form a loop(during merry-go-round phase),then the loop is whipped mostly in a 2D plane(ferris wheel action or catapulting,but mostly near instantaneous momentum change from big slow moving mass to fast quick moving mass via leverage as momentum is conserved.

There is a brief demonstration of this on his Kazmir video on the best of setpro forum in the multimedia experiment link.(The expanded version is available via video from pitchingcentral.com).

Rotational hitting with emphasis on the quickest possible power swing with a short swing radius appears to depend significantly on the "flail"(old fashioned manual then powered harvesting tool)principle which Jack has described as the efficient transfer of rotational torso energy via tight connection and a circular handpath(Jack has demonstrated the contributions of this rotation as opposed to/in conjunction with the "torque" contribution.

Also as Jack has said,all that kinetic chain momentum mumbo jumbo(I may be putting some extra words in Jack's mouth)is important only to the degree that it gets the shoulders/torso turning(then you better have good transfer mechanics).

Putting all this together,if pitching is flatbed,merry go round,ferris wheel, hitting is more flatbed then merry go round.The flatbed weight shift gravity energy is applied in pitching at the transition from merry go round to ferris wheel(the torso has been rotated by the hips before the front foot bears weight to layback/externally rotate the throwing arm/forming the loop that will be whipped).When the front foot bears weight/resists the weight of the body that has been falling forward since the windup,this energy is used to finish loading/forming the loop(extending from lower spine to ball) and to turn 3D rotation into 2D whipping of the loop,triggering whip by flexing of the bowed spine(it is amazing how curved/arched/extended/even twisted the spine can get before it unloads!).

In the desired quick rotational hitting mechanics,it's just flatbed,then merry go round and the resistance of the front foot harnesses the flatbed("weight shift")energy to jumpstart the merry go round.Another Nyman principle is that momentum transfer via the "kinetic"/body chain is best accomplished when one link is at maximum velocity when it connects/gives up momentum/decelerates and begins to drive the next link.In this case of hitting the flatbed weight shift energy is used to boost hip turn velocity to the max as the torso is "launched"(in throwing,you don't need the energy at that time since you can just use your muscles and joints to accomplish the same thing in midair and save the energy for the ferris wheel whip).

How you throw/pitch depends on how well you set up the final whipping of the body/torso/arm loop,what Nyman calls the final "bow" of the body(including catapulting/ferris wheel of the torso).

How you hit depends on how you set up/start the merry go round torso rotation.

Now another problem is that not many(?any?) people have much of a feel for momentum,except very indirectly,yet momentum conversion/transfer is the key to the quick swing.Many are so obsessed with just the details of individual part movement they can't feel/imagine/control the creation and direction of momentum.The great ones probably are operating on this higher/momentum plane which translates to a certain whole body motion/feel of gravity effects/stretching/unstretching/acceleration/effortlessness,etc,,what many here might think of as "see the ball hit the ball".But not many have been here and even fewer have taught others to successfully get here.

OK,was there a question,oh yeah:When does lean back start ?

This depends on how you go about setting up initial posture(before pitch is recognized) and how you have taught yourself to adjust as the swing proceeds.You need a method of creating and directing the flatbed weight shift energy.You can drop your center of gravity,or you can move your center of gravity forward,or both.This has to work in concert with how and when you bend at the waist/straighten.Everybody is different.

So I would try to think along these lines and see if there are some general principles.Epstein has good/great experience/intuition/communication.He has a good grasp of the issues,he has been there,and he can express it.I'm not sure who else has that particular set of qualifications.I sure don't.

He describes the feel of how much the axis leans back for a general style(generic swing prior to pitch recognition for singles/line drive/power hitters)as how much you "sit behind your axis".The more you sit back,the more general elevation to the swing.This plus the plan for the particular pitch will determine how the body is positioned prior to pitch recognition beginning.

Now it sounds/feels to me like it's a lot easier to lean back more as the swing proceeds than it is to straighten up the axis or evn straighten at the waist.If you lean back too much,it takes too long to catch up to the high stuff.So if you pop things up,it may be because too much lean makes you late.If this is the case(slumping/popping up/chronicaly late) or if you are looking for high heat,then Ted would say "set your sites higher", "get on top more" or "level out the swing".This means to me consciously deciding to change your axis for a particular pitch to get a more upright axis.This probably requires more back to front(Hank Aaron) "weight shift" which needs to be started before the recognition part of the swing when you get the "flatbed in motion".So you may have to begin addressing "lean back" in your prepitch plan.

Once the plan is determined and the pitch is on the way and being recognized(for Bonds this is maybe a couple of frames after release after the flatbed has been set in motion and just after the hip and bat are cocked-internal rotation of front leg and back arm with lifting front hip) there is a period of stretching the body out(scap load as stride foot goesout down).This is on autopilot based on what you(and your coach) have chosen to practice)but will play a part in determing how posture adjusts.

Then in the last frame or two before launch,there is the all important tht/drop and tilt portion of the swing(most adjustments only possible at the "margins" after this at "launch").

You need to learn this tht/hip uncock/box formation/drop and tilt phase as a "whole body" hip and four limb and head motion/feel.Think of the head as a little bowling ball sitting up there,it must be pretty important.Epstein describes it as(my comments in parentheses):

"stride to balance" (toe touch)........"once they get to this 'slightly' weight forward position,when the front heel drops,the rear elbow begins to tuck in(external rotation)close to the body as the body begins to tilt rearword.And,as the lead elbow starts to work slightly upward(internal rotation to form box along with back arm),the players weight AUTOMATICALLY(Epstein's caps)shifts back to the inside of the rear thigh;his/her forward movement is 'blocked' and the momentum(Epstein's word)revolves/rotates around the axis."

So as the swing proceeds you are adjusting how you carry the weight and when you are going to apply it.How much you automatically sit back wil be a combo of plan,style,and pitch.Posture will be a combo of lean back and bend at waist.

Don't forget about the head.

These prior-to- launch automatic adjustments may sometimes set up a stable yet shifting axis as seen by the head position changing in the 4-6 frames from launch to contact.This will also vary depending on how much the flatbed was set up to drop(sammy/barry vs move weight forward-Hank).Flatbed control must also not interfere with getting the hip rotating/uncocking into foot touch(lots of simultaneous actions going on) or there will be lunge/lateral hip slide at toe touch.Epstein's description/drills help get at this.

One other adjustment is delaying "launch" as offspeed is recognized which hadn't been fully anticipated( hitter not sitting on an offspeed pitch as plan for that pitch).Epstein(Tom's comments):

".....if the pitch is NOT timed correctly...comes in slower than anticipated,then the players counter-rotational(I would think of this as separation) move CAN reach its maximum point.When this occurs,you will see hitters who have good technique,begin to involuntarily(automatic-based on relevant practice which you remembered to do realistically)sit down on their back leg.This involuntary movement is "key," because by so doing,the hitter is able to "buy" the precious few ticks on the clock he needs to maintain his balance and put a good swing on the pitch."

So here's a way of taking advantage of the fact that more "sit" lean back takes more time,limited by when you can no longer have weight left to apply prior to jumpstarting launch-so you are forced onto the front side/forced to lunge.



Does any of this feel apply to your swing ?