Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Wed Jan 15 12:44:59 2003

Tom, I knew you would come through - "you the man" - thanks. A couple of follow up questions.
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> > > > Start with "drop and tilt" - that is the front heel is dropping and the back shoulder is dipping; is the back shoulder dipping because the elbows "are working into their slots" - back elbow dropping and the front elbow working up"? What effect does the "tilt" have on the bat? Is this the same "stage" as THT? It seems to me that tilt, elbows in the slot, THT all are the same stuff.
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> > > > At the drop and tilt stage, what is happening with the shoulders? Are the shoulders opening/rotating yet? Does it depend on whether the pitch is inside? In Epstein's tape and drills (especially the short 3) it seems that THT is left out and the shoulders/torso rotate without any THT or tilt or setting up a swing radius. Two things about Epstein's tape that concerned me was the fence drill (bad idea to me) and the short 3 where the shoulders "pop" and the bat is still in the cocked position. Which brings me to the next point -- those drills and that swing radius is o.k. if the pitch is middle in - do you neeed any THT or tilt or delay in the torso rotation for inside heat or can you just rotate your torso? Lastly, back to sitting -- why does the degree with which you sit or do not sit have anything to do with power or swing plane or contact point? i do not understand why so much breath is spent on the cue "sit"; if I internally rotate my back knee/thigh and flex my back knee (more than less) why am I better off than someone who stays more upright with less flex but the same degree of rotation? Does one perform this sitting action before or after or during the tilt phase?
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> > > Hey, what about the old cue to "keep your shoulder in" or "do not let your front shoulder fly open"? In Jack's tape he demonstrates the trouble a batter will have with plate coverage if he/she rotates the shoulders without initiating top hand torque. I think too much shoulders and too much sitting spells trouble - a lot of pop ups and problems with outside pitches and up/in. Is there any accuracy in these observations; if so, what can I do, like what drills, to help me feel top hand torque instead of too much shoulders? Thanks, BB.
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> > Just go ahead and let the shoulder do what they want, in fact, encourage them to open. But, keep and eye on the hand path and don't let the hands get away from you.
>
> 'Keeping the front shoulder in' is a cue that's been used for a long time. For lower level hitters it is a common problem. Some hitters who use their shoulders to initiate the swing. By yanking the shoulders around to get the swing going, the front shoulder pulls off the ball too early. In effect bottom hand torque happens soon after launch and well before contact. This results in total misses or balls pulled foul.
> On the other hand, people have taken that cue and decided that the front shoulder has to stay still while swinging. The only way you can do that is if you swing with only your arms. Not the solution.
> If the swing's power and start come from the hips, the shoulders will follow the hips, turn into contact at the correct time, and the front shoulder will open up in time to apply bottom hand torque at contact time.
> Start the swing with the hips and the shoulder problem goes away.
> Hope that helps.

Many excellent questions here,really at the frontiers of knowledge.

How to proceed ?

Keep some things in mind:

Nyman's principles-what is cause and effect?,what is cue vs reality?,is the objective evidence in support of the hypothesis.Nyman recommends video analysis as frequently as every few swings,especially when trying to break old habits.

Remember Epstein's style vs technique.

Remember JAck's principles.Try to see things through other's eyes,especially by trying to figure out how to interpret a cue they use in a way that fits the model in your head that you are seeing things through.

Also remember,no one is capable of 100% error.There is probably something important/relevant in all this(apparently conflicting)advice.

I find Epstein's cues in general to be extremely valuable.He has the experience and the intuition and the communication ability to come up with very effective cues that fit in a system of instruction that breaks things down and builds them up effectively.

Look at video with all this in mind as well as what the swing fels like to you and then try to figure out what is cause and effect,what is the sequence,how is it done,what is universl,what is important,how can it be learned/communicated,etc.

The question here have to do withwhat is happening in the crucial "separation" part of the swing.Epstein's "drop and tilt".Coach C's "golden moment"(golf term).Specifically what happens here,what are the shoulders doing,what is the back leg doing,what does it feel like,how much if any of it is part of some universal technucal requirement as opposed to just style.

Separation starts(after the stretching phase although these phases overlap)as the hip uncocks to initiate rotation from the middle out.If you watch high resolution video,often a rear shot,you can see the hip start to rotate before/going into front toe touch.This is followed by back elbow drop(external rotation)toward slot and front leg external rotation/thigh starting to turn over.These motions happen about toe touch or slightly before,but can vary.

Separation requires the torso to resist turning as the hips lead.You can feel the "rubber band winding".Using the arms together(external rotation of back arm and internal rotation of front arm)to "form the box"(I like Dusty Baker's cue here)seems to be a necessary way of stretching the torso to resist the hip turn.This includes the back shoulder dropping and the feel of "keeping the front shoulder in there".At the same time,the head is staying back and the center of gravity has continued it's fall(which started near the beginning of the swing before hip cock).As the box is formed,separation is increasing,the rubber band is winding and the bat is turning(THT).

Once the front toe touches and starts to bear weight,weight shift can be harnessed to amplify the turning of the hips/lower torso.This is described(as by coach c) as alinear movement,but don't forget,the hips have already started rotation which is working its way up and down.The weight shift energy is added to this which cause the rotating body to bend at the waist with a rotational(not linear to my mind) form of loading.Epstein mimics this in the torque/numbers drill by the cues "stride to balance" on the ball of an open foot(already externally rotated leg),then drop heel and tilt shoulder as weight shifts BACK over inside of back thigh.This is how to learn the non-lunging way of starting rotation and stabilizing the axis of rotation by the time the shoulder sdo start turning.The drop of the back shoulder and early working of the front elbow up are the last bit of resistant stretching of the upper toso prior to "unwinding the rubber band " at "launch".(I still don't like the "counter-rotation" cue here because the stretch of separation comes from the limb/box/arm motions,not turning the chest/torso back,but maybe that's just me)

Whether sitting means much or not is variable.The body has to do all these things and feel is individual.I would say that the more the back leg flexes as you control the smooth drop of the center of gravity into heel drop,the more the hitter tends to lean back on their overall axis.Feel will vary also depending on how much you bend at the waist to set the torso angle to match the plane of the pitch.

The feel of the swing can be controlled via numerous swing keys/focussing on certain ares,preferably areas with good proprioceptive sensitivity."Hips then hands" is a tried and true cue,but very complex.You feel the hips timing the swing and creating separation.The hands become a useful proprioceptive center only if they are tightly fixed to torso turn so that body posture adjustments are being used to match the pitch(hands to ball which are fixed to torso,not acting independently except for emergency/decelerating adjustment).etc.etc.

Sometimes it helps to also video yourself taking swings then comparing the video to what you felt and what other hitters are doing.

Let me know what you feel happens in the "golden moment".