Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Fri Jan 10 09:34:22 2003

On another post Coach C said that Epstein's teachings approach disaster. In what way? Would that be like saying that Lau Sr. was a disaster because all of his students did not swing the bat like George Brett? Or all of Red Adams pitching students were a disaster because they did not look like Sandy Koufax? Mike has learned a lot about hitting, and much of it from Ted Williams, and now is imparting much of that knowledge learned over the past 40 years to many lucky young men. Mac>>>
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> Besides excessive spine tilt, chicken winging, snapping the wrists and hitting the ball 2 feet in front of the lead foot I think his methods are perfect. Ted Williams never did any of that!!!!!!!!!! That's a fact!!!!! I have 3 videos of Williams instruction from the 60's and 70's......I also was lucky enough to buy Epstein's video's a few years ago and see him speak at conventions many times. There methods are completely different. Buy some old Ted Williams hitting videos and you'll catch my drift. The videos are outstanding with hall-of-famers in slow motion, Rose (not a hall-of-famer yet), Mantle, Bench, Billy Williams, Al Kaline, and more. I most definetly disagree with Epsteins approach. I'm sure he's a great guy none-the-less.
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Anyone's description of the swing is open to infinite interpretations which is why it has always been imposible to successfully teach hiting unless the student has access to and trusts someone who can teach you.Otherwise you have to be an incredibly gifted learner/adapter to successfully "master" the swing("emulation" per Epstein).

Only recently have Jack and Mike made enough of a method and model available that others can take a stab at responsibly teaching.Otherwise cue/descriptions(not reality) become teaching absolutes which ruin the student that adheres to them.What really is a necessary element of individual learning/style is eliminated by the well meaning coach,destroying the student's ability to learn and adapt by trial and error.

Paul Nyman has done the most to explain an overall approach in terms of distinguishing between cues and reality, understanding cause and effect,explaining motor learning principles,etc.,etc.,but unfortunately his info is not widely available.It is at a level of complexity that there is not an easy/numerous audience for.

Both Jack and Mike have reliable enough info that their methods can be adopted and used successfully(judiciously) by at least some to learn good basic rotational mechanics.This is significant progress.There are still many students/cocches this will still not work for,moreso the higher the level.It should be hoped that more coaches will learn what they don't know and find someone with the knowledge and experience to move more kids along to higher levels when the coach has hit their limit.

The success of Jack and Mike is due to critical evaluation of video,experience in other fields an open mind and an organized analytical approach.Nyman benefits/suffers(2 edged sword) from being an engineer at heart.Anyone know any good engineering jokes?The world would be a difficult place without them.

Jack and Mike identify some general underlying requirements and describe reasonably accurate descriptions of how to learn the feel of motions which implement these principles. They break the swing into parts and teach it from the end back.Nyman identifies this as the preferred method of motor learning(backwards chaining)since this is the way the body organizes itself to learn motor skills.If you pick apparent differences between the Mankin vs Epstein approaches,they usually turn out to be compatible.After all,they are both after the same swing.

Ultimately these methods are limited by the need to not overcomplicate communication so as to be confusing(we can be as confusing as we want in the forum).The beauty of the forum is that these things can be hashed out.What is missing is the actual posting and critiquing of video which is available as a separate service.This way the detailed unique to the student knowledge can be transferred.

Epstein may be different from Williams but he is by far the most similar to Williams.It seems a bit distorted to emphasize their differences.I do agree that Williams emphasis on hip cock has been diluted,but this is because of the difficulty of explaining it,even though it is easy to feel(both throwing and hitting) once you have learned it and are aware that you have learned it.I also dislike Mike's "counter-rotation" cue,but it can still be successfully interpreted.I don't like it becuase it can encourage too much of a "backswing" for hitting.There is a slight disconnect in Mike's method between the bat resting on the back arm and then finding your own arm action when you cut this loose.I am leary of the fence drill as a way of approaching this.I think this could benefit from some near absolutes of biomechanics which can be verified on high resolution video as involving the desired feel/motions,but the risk of confusion is way too high as a method of general inctructing(fine for forum-caveat reader!).In the overall scheme of things,these are quibbles,not dealbreakers,although they can be made into deal breakers if absolutely adhered to without experience and understanding guiding the interpretation/learning.

With respect to Jack's video(which I think defines linear vs rotational well),the things that jump out are:

1- the front leg action which is hard for the students as pointed out by Coach C.I would ask,as Teacherman did, what is the cause and effect here? In my opinion, the cause is the failure of getting a good "hip cock" and maintaining it until rotation of the hip(uncocking) begins going into front toe touch.

2- That darn front elbow keeps rollling over and pointing down.What is the cause ? Front arm action is,in my opinion,the key difference between the early/mid mechanics of overhand throwing and hitting.In throwing,the arms work symmetrically.In hitting,a two armed/handed motion using the rigid heavy bat reqires that the arms work asymmetrically for application of push/pull and for stretching the muscles.In Jack's lingo,as the back elbow drops(external rotation in biomechanical terms) during THT,the front elbow needs to "work up"(Epstein lingo for internal rotation) to form "the box"(Dusty Baker lingo).Deeper than this,it is the uncocking of the hip that initiates rotation from the middle out that nearly simultaneously drops the back elbow(THT) and turns over the front thigh/leg(if you kept the hip cocked well,not necessarily assured by the "keep the front leg flexed" cue since this is effect,not cause).Epstein also cues this portion of the swing as "drop and tilt"(as front heel drops,hip is uncocking,back elbow dropping into slot,front elbow working up all BEFORE the front heel is down and the torso has started turning or "launched).If you don't work the elbows asymmetrically(externally rotate back arm while internally rotating front arm in biomechanical terms)then the body can not adequately/consistently stretch/connect/be in plane for launch.As JAck says,the axis must be set with tight connection at launch.This way the "clutch doen't slip" and you get good torso rotation and tight connection into contact with the front elbow staying up.

3-THT is advanced/hard to teach.Maybe not with the addition of the ability to teach how th cock and uncock the hip.The beginning teaching with the bat controlled by resting on the arm is a good one,but you can progress when ready,especially by using the one handed back hand(circular handpath) drill as demonstrated on Jack's tape.You can start further upstream and make this a THT onehanded back arm drill.Or you can take the progression as JAck does in the tape:

Turn into bag back and forth-onehand circular handpath,back arm.

Add bottom hand from front heel down/front elbow up position back and forth into bag/tire

Same drill from toe touch to bag,starting with hip cocked/back elbow up(internally rotated as it does when the hip cocks)/front elbow down,then drop and tilt into the bag

Then back up and take some forward stride while holding hip cock and loading scap as stride foot goes out.

Then start from stance.Cock hip while internal rotation of back arm cocks bat toward pitcher and front leg internally rotates(in throwing and hitting the back arm and front leg work in synchrony).Hold hip cock while stretching the body by scap load(internally rotated back arm goes up-abduction-if not already held high,and back-pinch or horizontally adduct back scap).This part of the swing is unique for a given pitch.The hip/bat cock portion is generic/before location recognition.The scap load/stretch and uncock/tht/box are automatic(once learned) executions of matching movements that include timing and posture adjustments to set the right axis,swing radius and timing of launch.So there are still many location variables to work on once the basic full swing mechanics are learned.

The addition of these details seem necessary to me to teach how to mve to get the right feel of the swing.

Then you can back up and start in the stance,cock the hip as the bat cocks.

The "sitting" cue is a very complex one that has to do with hip cocking,maintaining the hip cock,some ongoing forward motion of the overall body/center of gravity until the front heel is down,posture correction by bend at waist and lean of axis.Maybe another time.