Posted by: Teacherman () on Thu Dec 19 20:29:48 2002

Hi All
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> > > > > We ran out of room so I am continuing the topic as a new thread.
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> > > > > >>> Come on guys!
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> > > > > > > Where do you see the bat undergoing "a good amount of angular displacement before the hand-path is accelerated" (Jack's quote).
> > > > > > > All the video I watch, the knob turns WITH (as opposed to BEFORE) shoulder rotation.
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> > > > > > > Frame by frame anylysis does not show this; if it does, then give us a specific reference. What is "a good amount"? The window of timing between cock and launch is not a "window"; it is non-existent, except for purposes of theory and discussion. There is no independent movement of the hands in this phase that is not associated with upper torso/shoulder rotation IMO. And for people to state that a batter "sets his swing radius" and determines the arc of the swing between toe touch and launch based on the location of the pitch (inside or outside) in this phase is beyond belief to me - NO WAY. Maybe the hitter pre-determines his swing arc/radius before the pitch is thrown and just executes it; I still doubt it very seriously. Now, tht maybe is something that "increases the swing arc" in an attempt to create early bat speed - o.k., but varying arcs based on pitch location in a "window of time" that I find hard to believe even exists is stretching it a little bit and overemphasizing the importance and significance of (tht) a movement that is questionable in and of itself. Rotational better than linear, no question; but then to take it to an extreme seems silly. <<< – (rogerh)
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> > > > > >>> I apologize for misreading my notes.The angelfire clip is still working.I estimate end of bat cock/beginning of uncocking after frame #11(hip cock).Hip can be seen uncocking in frame #16,but torso doesn't launch until after frame #17(torso has turned in frame #18),so that's > 5 frames of bat turning before the torso kicks in at 30 frames/sec.Contact estimated at frame # 21. <<< = (Tom)
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> > > > > >>> I watched the video and I have a couple of questions to make sure I am seeing and more importantly UNDERSTANDING the same thing you are describing. It can be like the Tony Gywnn deal describing Bonds; everybody sees what they believe or want to.
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> > > > > Sooo, in these >5 frames before the hips and torso uncock, what exactly is the bat supposed to be doing?
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> > > > > In your opinion, the bat starts to uncock while the hips and shoulders are still cocking? So the question is what forces are acting on the bat to cause it to turn before shoulder rotation and while the hands are still back and connected?
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> > > > > It seems that you are saying that the bat starts to turn before toe touch? The hitter is striding(and still cocking the hips and loading the scapula) when the bat begins to turn/uncock? What is the bat doing -- bat head going back towards the catcher, setting up the swing radius, creating early bat speed? What is the purpose or why is this sequence so meaningful?
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> > > > > In other words, if the bat did not turn until the hips uncocked and the torso turned, what would be the disadvantage or drawback to that?. IMO, all the frame by frame video I watch, I do not see the bat head turn as early as you believe, but I would love to hear you clarify this so my EYES can be open. Thanks. <<< -- (rogerh)
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> > > > > Hi Tom & rogerth
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> > > > > The clip of Bond’s swing that Tony Gwynn narrated leaves out many of the important frames that make him the great hitter he is. The frames that would have shown the bat speed Barry generates during pre-launch torque have been left out. This sequence makes it appear that he comes to a static bat position in frame #3 (at least the third frame they showed). – If he actually did have a static bat at that point, he would be just another hitter.
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> > > > > And, if Gwynn actually understood what makes the Bond’s swing so effective, he would know that what takes place AFTER his frame #3 is made possible by what takes place BEFORE frame #3. – Tony, there is much more than just a timing move occurring before frame #3.
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> > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > I did respond to the post right before Jack's with more detail of the angelfire clip without missing frames.I will wait and hope it appears.The clip does seem to be working,see url under the INTERNAL ROTATION thread below.
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> > > Tom-
> > > from your previous post (somewhere below)
> > > "A scant 4 frames max of "launch" to contact."
> > > I have counted this too. And counting other players I find most MLB players to be 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 frames from launch to contact.
> > > Most kids are 5 or more.
> > > Bonds is a marvel of efficiency and that added 1/30 sec is huge in terms of reading the pitch, deciding later than his peers, still generating HR batspeed by contact.
> > > I am using that metric - frames from front heel down to contact as the measure of swing efficiency / swing quickness. Bonds is the best I've seen.
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> > Dan-
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> > You are also very familiar with Paul Nyman's work.His approach and detailed analysis has really been crucial in further analyzing what might be important here.In addition to the "scap loading phase",I also think a key moment in the swing is analagous to what Paul refers to in pitching as the "giddy-up" move.This may be the same as what jack describes as THT with the back elbow dropping.The back elbow drop is more emphasized in the Arod type as opposed to the Bonds type where the bat uncocks earlier and more smoothly.I hope Paul will get his stuff published so the similarities and differences between throwing and hitting can be better understood and illustrated.
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> TOM:
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> O.K., you got my curiousity up - what is the "giddy-up" move and how do you do it? I ride horses so I can about imagine what giddy-up is to a hitter. Giddy-up is more to my liking than that scapula stuff. I'm more confused about scapula loading after reading all that stuff than before, but giddy-up can't be all that confusing. Also, give us a reference to a MLB player that does it so we can check it out, maybe somebody who plays on the Astros. Hey, did you hear, we got Jeff Kent? Kent does not sound like he was/is as big of a Barry Bonds fan as you guys are. Sounds like Bonds got an ego problem. There have been several references to Paul Nyman, who is he and how does one get access to his material/philosophy? s.m.m.

Whatever problem Kent has with Bonds is personality. It is not about Bonds hitting stroke.