Posted by: mikeyd () on Wed Dec 18 13:38:39 2002

> > >>> Even the old "knob to the ball" works if the knob is turning while the hands are still staying back and connected.<<<
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I agree with you, the bat should undergo a good amount of angular displacement before the hand-path is accelerated. What forces would you say are acting on the bat that cause the knob to turn before shoulder rotation and the hands arc into their path?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tony Gwynn offers his explanation while breaking down Bond's swing on the USA Today clip -- Gwynn says it is the force supplied is with the "bottom hand" pulling the bat through and in his analysis he says and sees and advocates pulling the bat through without "much arc" and he even says that Bond's bat moves in a parallel plane/flat plane vs. an arc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He also says "the top hand is going along for the ride".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gwynn has the credentials as one of the greatest hitters ever; now an analyst on ESPN and head college baseball coach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How is his explanation/analysis/experience refuted?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gwynn is describing the same thing as Jack and others,but less from and objective/video perspective and more from a feel perspective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example,let's take his "pull with the bottom hand".If you listen to all his comments and watch the video,you can see that he is not refuting the idea of the "circular" or "arcing" handpath,but rather emphasizing keeping the hands in and swinging the bat in the power plane perpendicular to the rotation of the upper torso.This is the meaning of the "flat" description- the motion is staying in the power plane,but withinthat plane,there is an arc,a detail that is important,but not the way gwynn thinks.This is similar to what Jack details as the bat lining up with the front arm and maintaining connection,etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > > I disagree. He talks about the "bottom hand" pulling the knob of the bat through the zone; he says the "more you can keep your hands inside the baseball, the better hitter you're going to be"; he even gloats that "people have said you cannot pull the bat through the zone on a FLAT PLANE and generate any pop... Well, I give you Barry Bonds (Gywnn says) because that is exactly what he does." Then he goes on to say "the top hand is going along for the ride". And then if you have read his book and listen to him on ESPN, he does not agree with your theory (tht). I'm not saying I agree with Gywnn, I just wanted to hear the other side of the story; someone refuting the facts or his analysis of Bonds video. But to say he is agreeing with your theory and he is just saying it a different way is WRONG IMO. Sounds like to me Gywnn maybe talking about this "HOOK effect" that people have said Nyman describes - where you in fact use the bottom hand pull. BUT when he says the TOP HAND is just riding along, that sounds very different than top hand torque creating forces on the bat head that dictate the swing radius/arc. He says "top hand riding along", "bottom hand pulling, the knob on a flat plane". Surely, Gywnn knows the difference and surely he knows the right language to describe what he is analyzing and surely he chose his words and his description intentionally, just like he did in his book and like he does on TV. That's his job by the way, to analyze and explain for the public what is going on. Gywnn says that Bonds is the "holy grail" for this type of hitting (sounds almost like he advocates the "linear, lag" -he calls it "reverse V", inside-out swing) and Bonds is his example for why it works so well. It's almost like he's telling the "people who have said you cannot pull the bat through the zone on a flat plane and generate any pop", all of you rotational, top hand dominant, pull the ball freaks --you're wrong, look at Barry Bonds, he does it my way (just like I told you so).
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure what Gwynn means by reverse V(?maybe the same as Baker's "maintaining the box?).I don't think he has any thoughts at all about THT.I do think that the "flat plane" is just that,a plane within which there is an arc/hook. The top hand going along for the ride is very similar to the Lau cues of pulling with the bottom hand/the open top hand drill and the tophand release after contact to promote extension(right sequence of joint motions) and backspin(I don't follow him-Lau- here).
> > >
> > > I played college same years as Gwynn,think we were both on 1 of the same all american teams so I would like to be partial to him being such a great hitter as he was,but to be honest I don't think he could find his ass with a funnel when it comes to analysing Bonds swing.He refers to their being little arc at all,he seems to not even be aware of it,yet he studied video all the time.He says at least twice it is all in the bottom hand ,the upper is along for the ride and that is just not the case.By frame 5 the rear shoulder is really driving the top hand through the zone.I think alot of his hitting may have had the top hand along for the ride and that is why he hit alot of singles the other way he just kept dragging that barrel through the zone letting the barrel lag back because of no top hand drive and now he wants to see the same in Bonds .rql
> >
> > rql-
> > great analyis of Gwynn's analysis. I agree. He is seeing Bonds through his own image, not seeing what it is that Bonds does that is so special.
>
> I would still point out that if you keep in mind a more realistic model of how the swing is produced while you read Gwynn,there may be something very useful in there.Since you have a pretty darn good ide of mechanics/reality,there isn't much danger of getting off track.It's just an opportunity to try something that feels right to a great hitter and see if it works for you.USA Today "analysis":
>
> 1-pumping bat as "preswing rhythmic activity",consistent approach to each swing
>
> 2-head still,concentrate on timing of bat cock/lifting of stride foot.hands drop which are a feature of Bonds "style".Sounds like the "feel" of going into hip cock to me.Hands drop as waist bends with spine flex.Bat cocks as stride foot lifts(internal rotation with stride foot lift/inward turn of front knee).
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> 3- summary of "first part of hitting".Head still.Just move bottom half and hands.This is at heel drop,hips have uncoccked but torso has not launched yet.Nice description of minimalist preparation to hit.
>
> 4-pull with bottom hand( There should be a good feel of pull here if you have cocked and uncocked the hip well to start good full torso turn.The way he describes it to me,I think he stresses not dropping the bat out of plane-"don't pull DOWN',"keep hands in".This should promote quick torso turn and still permit hooking handpath withi poqwer plane.Top hand should not feel overactive at this point(going along for ride
>
> 5-palms up/down.reverse V.head still.top hand along for ride.
>
> 6-I find this most interesting to experiment with."Don't force bottom half".Get in position(#3-first part of hitting)then pull with the bottom hand and keep the hands in.This could be a nice description of hips uncocking then rest of body rotating nicely as the hips decelerate.Not forcing the lower body which might not get the torso going as well.
>
> Try these things and see how they work for you,
> but don't violate the mechanical model you believe in unless improved results force a change to the model.


If you watch video of Tony Gywnn you must admit he was a great hitter. Added to the fact that physically in comparison to his peers he was not the greatest of athletes. His mechanics are pretty sound too. Critic his swing? Not bad to me. The biggest beef with Gywnn is his analysis and what he chooses to emphasize and focus on -- that being head still, weight back, bottom hand pull, the lag or power V of the bat, the inside-out approach. But watching his game footage and his demonstrations on ESPN, and trying to corelate that to what he says and what it really means versus what they say on this board and what it means is not all that far apart. Gywnn is different than some athletes who really do not know mentally how or what they are doing - this guy's edge was mental and being prepared and being a student of the game. It's hard to argue or criticize somebody who will be in the Hall of Fame. Ted Williams, great athlete great hitter great smarts, but you could pick his terminology and explanations apart too just because it does not fit your scientific, theoritical model. It's good to have great hitters who finish their careers and then try to give something back to the game or share their experiences with the rest of us, even if we do disagree about whether it is the top or bottom hand, or flat or arcing.