Posted by: George () on Wed Sep 12 12:45:20 2007

> > > > > Hi All
> > > > >
> > > > > I have often pointed out that the very best hitters generate their exceptional power and bat speed with transfer mechanics that first accelerates the bat-head rearward to and through the lag position (bat sweeping past the catcher). With these mechanics, they have already generated considerable bat speed in the rearward portion of the swing plane before they direct their energy toward the ball.
> > > > >
> > > > > The bat-head arcs through about 180 degrees from its launch position behind the head to contact. The bat first moves rearward 90 degrees to the “lag” position, and then 90 degrees from the lag position to contact. The reason the bat first moves rearward 90 degrees to the lag position is because a batter CANNOT generate maximum bat speed with a static bat at the lag position. Great hitters generate great bat speed because their mechanics is accelerating the bat-head around the entire 180 degrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > Notably, most average hitters use upper-body mechanics that simply take his hands and knob toward the ball without first generate bat speed by taking the bat rearward toward the catcher. Driving the knob forward causes the bat-head to just lower and trail behind the hands.
> > > > >
> > > > > Shawn stated many times in his analysis video that there is no rearward acceleration of the bat-head and that the bat only accelerated downward. Of course the bat lowers downward into the swing plane, but it also moves rearward. Shawn discounts (or misunderstands) the force applied by the top hand as the rear elbow lowers into the slot, even though video analysis clearly shows the bat moving rearward when this occurs.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no point in further discussing this with Shawn, but you be the judge: is there rearward acceleration of the bat?
> > > > >
> > > > > <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~ben_2004/plttht.wmv">Shawn’s Analysis</a>
> > > > >
> > > > > <a href="http://www.batspeed.com/media/Sosa_Launch2Lag.wmv">My Analysis</a>
> > > > >
> > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Jack Mankin. I think we have a MAJOR problem. And that problem is not that You or Shawn is right or wrong, but that two intelligent people can look look at the EXACT/same footage and draw completely different conclusions. As such, rather than concede to dismiss the argument, I would suggest that you and Shawn at some point in the future find a way to use other resources to come to the same conclusion one way or the other.
> > > >
> > > > Further, this is not about the majority opinion either way but finding a way to the truth. If necessary it might help if Sosa and or another hitter who used the same principle described what he is doing/feeling during the swing.
> > > >
> > > > If you have opportunity, please show a side view A-Rod or Pujols next to Sosa. I believe you will see that A- Rod or Pujols exhibits more of what you preach than Sosa or a Jim Thome.
> > > >
> > > > In addition, I feel Ramirez also exhibits what you preach, but his teammate Ortiz does not in my opinion.
> > >
> > > Jack,
> > >
> > > You have nothing, not only did you completely dodge the issue of PLT and THT, but your now saying that the bat moving to the lag position is the bat arcing backwards. Do you think it takes a special mechanic to arc the bat to lag?'
> > >
> > > The bat remains cocked as long as possible. Becuase of this there is a sharpness to the arc of the bat from rotation. There is no special mechanic except to use rotation and stay connected.
> > >
> > > I know your MO is to aviod question and refute video evidence, but that one takes the cake.
> > >
> > > I bet you don't have enough guts to even post this message.
> > >
> > > Shawn
> >
> > Shawn:
> >
> > Not "enough guts." Please. Who do you think you are other than someone who has been proven incorrect several times in the past month? Teacherman was absolutely correct that you have your head so far in the sand that you have no desire to learn or discuss. Instead, you come on here with an angry tone, posting one nonsensical comment after another. Frankly, I don't mind posting your statements and your video to display what you are really all about, but to keep the discussions informative for OTHER VIEWERS you had better find a more productive way to convey your message in the future or you can return to your site and talk to yourself.
> >
> > As for the issues discussed recently, you first denied that the bat rotates more degrees than the shoulders to contact (you said they rotated the "same" amount), so we post video showing that you that the bat rotates about 250 degrees while the shoulders rotate only about 90 degrees. Then you try to change your story that claim that wasn't what you meant.
> >
> > Next you say that the bat does not move before the shoulders start to rotate, so we again show that you are mistaken.
> >
> > Next you say that there is no rearward movement of the bat, only downward. We post a video showing that the bat moves rearward. You then post a video, wherein you awkwardly concede at one point that the bat moves backward after drawing lines, but then you deny it and claim that it is the camera angle and that the bat only moves downward.
> >
> > We post another video showing a side shot of Sosa with grid lines so that the viewers can make up their own mind. This video clearly shows a rearward movement corresponding to PLT followed by the lowering of the rear shoulder. You again deny what you are seeing.
> >
> > You further refuse to answer the question: 1) after PLT, as the back elbow lowers into the slot and applies pressure on the top hand, is the bat moving rearward toward the catcher or only downward? You also ignore the whole point of Jack's reason for this mechanic - it generates early bat speed. In fact, more bat speed than can be generated with CHP only (i.e., a static bat and pure shoulder rotation).
> >
> > A few other questions for you: 2) why don't most good hitters start with the rear elbow down if it is purely a wasted movement; 3) why do most good hitters use an inward turn rather than start with a static bat since you believe only CHP creates bat speed; 4) why don't you promote starting with the bat horizontal against the back shoulder since you believe no energy can be gained from PLT or THT?
> >
> > Ah well, don't bother answering with more hollow spite as it really doesn't matter anymore since your objective is to fight, not discuss and inform the viewers of ideas and batting mechanics.
> >
> > Brian
>
> Brian,
>
> The only one with the attitude is you. You both ignore video evidence of what is happening in the swing.
>
> I clearly showed that the bat isn't arcing backwards from PLT or THT. Rather the bat is moving downwards. The overhead view clearly shows this to be the case, yet you choose to ignore it for the sake of your misapplied theory.
>
> Another thing I didn't continue with the bat arcing the same distance as the shoulders movement because it was stupid. But', if you would like to discuss how the bat that doesn't start at the same angle of the shoulders ends at contact completely square. If the bat travels at a different range then the shoulders, then square contact would be impossible and every swing would end with contact at extension. But', for the most part square contact is the goal or correct mechanics.
>
> Question 1) First of all there is no PLT this would totally defy the biomechanics happening in the swing. If there is any backswing or cocking or loading of the barrel it is usually to a small degree. But' for the sake of the readers what backswing there is or inward turn it begins by setting the hips or loading the hip/region. This travels upward until it reaches the tip of the bat. At some point the hips begin to rotate. Again the forward movement continues until it acts on the tip of the bat, which is last. So forcing any kind of PLT is a lost cause.
>
> Once the elbow lowers and the shoulders really begin to turn. The bat is arcing to the side much more as compared to the backwards movement of the bat. Any backwards movement is just part of the swing unloading, it's a rotational hinge.
>
> The bat natrally wants to arc outwards because of rotational forces. It takes no special mechanics to get the bat to arc outwards. This is all a direct result of physics and biomechanics of the swing. In fact many try to retard this movement by cocking the bat towards the pitcher which helps to keep the bat as the last link in the chain.
>
> As long as the back elbow is high there is no static bat.
>
> Question 2), The launch position is attained prior to toe touch, but some have some preliminary movement to get there so toe touch is the launch position. In the launch position the back elbow is at shoulder height and the forearm in level. There are very few who have the elbow down. This position can clearly be seen in all good/great hitters. Anyone with serious baseball knowledge will tell you more batspeed can be achieved from this position.
>
> The most glaring aspect of a high elbow (shoulder height) is it helps to create some separation. The hips are opening while the back comes down. This helps to get "the hips ahead of the hands". It is much more difficult to create this separation with a low elbow. With a low elbow you must be able to make the hands/bat wait for the hips. With the high back elbow it is much more natural. When the elbow lowers you can clearly see the bat cocked, the hips open and the shoulder start to fully turn (there might be some slight turning of the shoulders).
>
> Another aspect of the high back elbow is to create some "loops" in the so called backswing phase. These loops are created to transfer the maximum amount of momentum in the swing. A whip makes loops in the process of going from the backwards motion to the forwards motion, these loops help to create maximum momentum transfer from segments transferring. The back elbow lowering (or a high back elbow) creates a loop without any real backwards movement. Compared to something like throwing the arm has a backwards motion or creates a very large loop. In the swing there is minimal backwards movement and created a large loop such as in throwing is not desirable (or having a back swing such as in tennis). Another aspect of creating this loop in the stretch reflex. In the baseball swing a small loop is created from the high back elbow and it lowering as the hips begin. The hitter keeps the bat cocked as long as possible (which is the opposite of PLT), thus keeping the bat as the last link in the chain. Which naturally creates a small loop in the whip and creates some natural stretch reflex without any rearward movement (which we can go into more detail about how this helps create the kinetic chain if you wish).
>
> Again, the only one dodging questions is Jack. He is so entrenched in his belief that he cannot except the truth.

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Shawn. I happen to notice that in the Swings of Jason Giambi, Al Kaline, and Graig Nettles that they loop the bat to the ball. They start up and create an upswing using leg drive. This to me is somewhat similar on one chopping down a tree. What are your thoughts?

Also I observed Albert Belle start with a Sosa like hand position, but he takes his hands up and uses very little if any THT in his swing. Upon bring his hands up rather than in a rearward arch, he effectively sweeps the bat through the zone creating backspin upon impact to hit through the ball. Belle could hit anyones fastball and had tremendous batspeed. To me this shows more than one way to generate batspeed. Would you agree?