Posted by: () on Fri Nov 1 05:22:55 2002

The swing should obviously be initiated by the body and not the arms or hands. But, what part of the body should the batter think about moving first? Should it be the pulling back of the lead shoulder or the driving through of the back side?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > The bad news is that it is virtually impossible to make the lower body "think" it should start first. You don't hit the ball with your hips, you hit the ball with the bat, which is being held by the hands.Therefore any "thinking" is done with the hands.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > The good news is that if everything is done right, everything will be done automatically, in the right sequence and without having to "think" about it. I won't rehash my prior posts in detail, but here is a brief summary:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > If the bat is cocked sufficiently, when the time comes that the hitter "thinks" swing, his hands will start the swing and the rest of the body will follow suit. Once the hitter "thinks" swing, the bat will start uncocking because the bat can not go anywhere except in the uncocking motion in order to ultimately head toward the target. The natural uncocking motion is causing the hands to head toward the catcher, while simultaneously the hips are starting to open.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > It would be futile and unnecessary to try to make a conscious attempt for the hips to start opening first. They WILL open as I described and without thinking about it if there is suficient bat cock.
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> > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. All the hands do is hold onto the bat. The body "is" the swing. Show me a guy who starts his swing with his hands/bat and I'll show you a guy who can't catch up to a good fastball and a guy who can't adjust to offspeed pitches, breaking balls and pitch location. Start the swing with the belly button. Why? Because you can move your hips without the upper body moving (not good) and you can move your shoulder/hands/arms without the lower body moving (not good). It's hard to move the belly button without everything moving as a unit. Everything moving as a unit (as one package, not as individual parts) is critical.
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> > > > > > > > > > "All the hands do is hold onto the bat". If this were true the bat would stay in a more-or-less vertical position the entire swing.The hands have a major role and that is to provide direction. Direction of the sweet part of the bat as well as direction in getting the bat from the launch position to the lag position to contact. People can disagree on how much or how little POWER is provided by the arms/hands in relation to the lower body, but to say "All the hands do is hold onto the bat" is just plain rediculous.
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> > > > > > > > > > "Show me a guy who starts his swing with his hands/bat and I'll show you a guy who can't catch up to a good fastball". That depends on your definition of when the swing starts. I assume the swing starts at decision, not launch position. If, at decision, the bat is not cocked, then yes, the natural direction of the hands would be forward. If, on the other hand the bat is cocked at moment of decision, then as the hips are simultaneously starting to rotate, the bat is uncocking & the knob is heading toward the catcher (nowhere the knob can go except toward the catcher).
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> > > > > > > > > > "Start the swing with the belly button."...Try teaching any player, regardless of level of play to think "Start the swing with the belly button." Good luck. That's not how the body & mind work. It's perfectly natural for the body to want to initially move the part of the body that is holding the striking instrument. But, I repeat, "the bat is cocked at moment of decision, then as the hips (belly button) are simultaneously starting to rotate, the bat is uncocking & the knob is heading toward the catcher (nowhere the knob can go except toward the catcher). The point is, with sufficient bat cock, everything will fall into place without having to think "belly button first".
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> > > > > > > > > >Bart,seems to me that the bat is cocked with the knob at the catcher ,the uncocking is when the rear elbow comes down and the chp begins.Where do you see the knob during cocking rql
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> > > > > > > > RQL...You are right. At bat cock the knob already is facing the catcher, so during the uncocking phase it is the bathead that is moving toward the catcher. A very important detail I might add. And yes, another important detail: the rear elbow does start coming down during the uncocking phase, so that by launch position it is down where it should be. Opponents of the high elbow argue that the high elbow is bad, but usually their argument is that AT LAUNCH it is bad, which I agree. However, ithe rear elbow should come down naturally during uncocking phase, so therefore no problem, right?
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> > > > > > > In addition,I believe that cocking and uncocking with the big muscles asoociated with the back elbow going up and down is preferred,as opposed to the bat being wagged back and forth with hand/wrist action.The latter seems more like the undesirable type of"wrapping" that makes good timing difficult.
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> > > > > > To All,
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> > > > > > I would like to point something out. From watching many tapes, it is very difficult to tell which part of the swing moves first when you see someone swing at the ball. It's almost impossible to tell with the naked eye.
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> > > > > > After you look at enough tape you learn that you can tell what part of the body moves first on the pitches that batter does NOT swing at. In the upper levels the pitches are fast so the batter does not have time to wait to decide if he is going to swing. Batters start their swing on every pitch by making their initial move but do not follow through when they decide not to swing. Batters do not decide to swing, they decide not to swing.
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> > > > > > When the batter holds up, for an instant, they are standing still with their hips open and the rest of the body in the stance position. At this point it obvious that the hips move first.
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> > > > > > Incidently, it is very difficult to teach hitters this as they get a little older, say 16 and older. This is because at the lower levels the pitchers are slower and the batters do not need to start the swing on every pitch to get around on the ball. After a few years they develop habits that are hard to break, though some drills that have been effective in changing this habit.
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> > > > > > This is a common reason for batters to be late on the ball even if they have good mechanics.
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> > > > > > S. Procito
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> > > > > Sam, I agree with much of what you said , except for 'is very difficult to tell which part of the swing moves first when you see someone swing at the ball. It's almost impossible to tell with the naked eye.". With clips and a GIF Animator program, you can indeed tell what moves first. This is how it became obvious to me that the hips strat rotating as the bat uncocks. This freeze frame capability enables one to confirm much of what Jack teaches.
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> > > > The problem I have with considering the "bat uncock" as the first movement is it isn't really a move to swing. It is an uncocking not a movement to the ball. If the bat uncocking is considered the beginning of the swing then what about the stride, or the hitch, or the inward turn, or any other movement a hitter might do prior to swinging. Yes, I understand that it is very close in time to the swing, but I can stand here and cock and uncock my bat continuously and never approach a swing. And, I can swing without a cock or uncock of the bat. I can also rotate my hips without swinging but I can't swing without rotating my hips.
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> > > > What's important is what is the first thing that moves as you make an aggressive move to the ball. I believe it is the rotation of the body which is then followed by the hands. That's why I believe the belly button is a good point to focus on. And Bart, I have taught several young players this technique without any trouble at all in fact it is very easy for them to understand. The belly button is always connected to both the upper and lower halves. You can't hardly move it without moving both the torso and the hips at the same time and the hands fire after the torso's rotation. Yes, Bart, the hands do provide bat head direction but if they move before anything else you'll never be able to make adjustments to offspeed, breaking balls, and pitch location. The committment of the hands (forward to hit the ball; not the uncocking) ahead of the lower half rotation is a formula for disaster.
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> > > > And, so everyone understands, when you say the hands move, are you saying the wrist joint is moving the hands, the arms are pulling the hands forward, or the torso's rotation is moving the hands? (I'm not talking about the uncocking here, I'm asking about their movement to the ball in the swing.
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> > > "If the bat uncocking is considered the beginning of the swing then what about the stride, or the hitch, or the inward turn, or any other movement a hitter might do prior to swinging."
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> > > The difference in bat uncock and the inward turn, stride, etc is that bat uncock is happens AFTER decision to swing, whether the decision to swing is conscious or subconcious. Once you decide to swing, if the bat is in a cocked position, what can the bat do FIRST except uncock? And what can the hips do other than start their rotation?
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> > > The point is, yes, hips need to start the swing slightly "ahead" of the hands. If we agree on this, then how do you do it? You have three alternatives. (1) You can keep the bat in an uncocked position but consciously think "hips before swing". This is not something that comes natural. It is natural that when you think "swing", you will think "move the striking instrument." It is not natural to think, first hips, then a split second later the bat.
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> > > (2) You can keep the bat in an uncocked position but have additional inward turn (shoulders and hips). In my view, hitters who use this technique tend to EXCESSIVELY turn in the hips & shoulders.
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> > > (3) You can have a mechanism whereby once the swing starts, the hands start, as well as of course the hips. The trick, though is how to get the hips slightly AHEAD of the hands. Solution: batcock is what enables the hitter to be "swinging" by starting his hands (which is a natural movenment) but yet forcing the body to allow the hips to move "first" while the hips are starting to rotate "ahead" of the hands. In other words, as the hips are starting to rotate towards the pitcher the bathead is actually simultaneously moving the opposite direction, toward the catcher.
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> > No, I don't think "move the striking instrument" when I think swing. I think rotate a connected torso which happens to be holding onto a bat. Moving the striking instrument leads to hands and arms and shoulders pulling the bat forward through the zone. A very linear movement. However, when you think Moving the striking instrument leads to hands and arms and shoulders pulling the bat forward through the zone. Rotate on the tilted spine with the rear shoulder working under and the lead shoulder working up and the bat is driven by rotation to the ball. The hands stay in the hit zone much longer giving a timing error mechanism. You can generate bat speed by moving the hands forward but your bat quickness is greatly diminished. Your swing becomes long and the contact point pushes forward leading to arm hitting and the dreaded lunge. Bringing the bat to contact by rotation of the connected shoulders/torso/hips is the quickest way to contact which is deep in the zone giving the hitter an extra 2' or so to look at the ball.
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> > It is just not possible for the little muscles of the arms and hands to generate the speed and quickness necessary to hit the ball. The large muscles of the lower torso and hips are the starter and driver of the mechanism
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> "It is just not possible for the little muscles of the arms and hands to generate the speed and quickness necessary to hit the ball. The large muscles of the lower torso and hips are the starter and driver of the mechanism". I agree.
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> " Moving the striking instrument leads to hands and arms and shoulders pulling the bat forward through the zone." Sooner or later the striking instrument has to be moved. The question is in what SEQUENCE.The correct sequence is hips first, then slightly later hands. If, while the bat is uncocking the hips are starting to rotate, this should satisify your criteria of a correct swing, because the hips are starting to rotate but the hands have not yet started heading toward the pitcher. Why? Because the hands can NOT head toward the pitcher until the bat is uncocked.
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> "You can generate bat speed by moving the hands forward but your bat quickness is greatly diminished. Your swing becomes long and the contact point pushes forward leading to arm hitting and the dreaded lunge." I agree if the hands are moved forward TOO SOON. Again, SEQUENCE is key. Hips first (slightly), then hands. That's why bat cock serves as a useful mechanism for restraining the hands from coming too soon.
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> " Bringing the bat to contact by rotation of the connected shoulders/torso/hips is the quickest way to contact which is deep in the zone giving the hitter an extra 2' or so to look at the ball." I certainly agree (except for the part about "deep in the zone").
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> Summary: As the bat uncocks, the hips are starting to rotate & the bat head is heading toward the catcher. While this is happening, the HANDS HAVE NOT YET STARTED TOWARD THE PITCHER, BECAUSE THE HANDS ARE NOT YET IN A POSITION WHERE THEY CAN START TOWARD THE PITCHER. By the time the bat is uncocked, the stride foot has landed, the bat is in a near-vertical position,and the hips have rotated perhaps 30 degrees or so. This is Epstein's "torque position". At this point, the hands are now got started in a circular hand path, and the hitter is well on his way to a rotational swing.

Bart

It appears we are reaching agreement. However, what don't you like about "deep in the zone"? All good hitters hit deep in the zone IMO. By that I mean they don't go out after the ball they let it come to them. And when they let the ball come to them you'll find they are hitting the ball off the inside of the front knee or a even a little deeper depending on pitch location. Many coaches tell players to hit the ball "out front". I really don't like that cue. Out front of what. The Plate. That's horrible advice. That has to do with where one stands in the box. Out front of the body? Again, horrible advise. That leads to casting and disconnect. Letting the ball get deep is a good cue to help the hitter stay connected and hit the ball with rotation rather than releasing the hands and the arms to the ball. Good rotation requires the ball getting deeper. If you establish your axis and maintain it without drift or cast the ball will be much deeper in the zone when you hit it.

And for F. Jessup. I thought the torso was the part of the body above the waist. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is why I said torso and hips.

Teacherman
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