Posted by: Mark H. () on Sun Oct 20 15:14:13 2002

I am sure this has been discussed in great detail in the past so if you would like to direct me to that discussion or add to it please feel free. My question is regarding the 'rise ball'. Does the baseball actually begin its movement towards homeplate on a straight line and then begin to rise? Or is it a perception of the naked eye, because of leaning backwards and the particular release point the ball seems to move upwards?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John,
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To make a ball rise it would have to spin backward, toward the thrower, with enough velocity to make it overcome the pull of gravity. A base ball thrown 100 mph over 55 ft will drop 2.61 feet.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is physically impossible for a human to spin a ball enough to make it rise. Overhand is the way to make the ball spin backward the most. It must spin from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock and it can't be done. It certainly can't be done in softball where the myth of the "rise ball" is most prevalent.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scientist, who know a ball can't rise think that the most that can be done is make the ball not drop as much. Batters expect the ball to drop a certain amount. When it doesn't it "looks" to them like it rose.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "rise ball" does not rise. People think it rises because the softball fast-pitch is the only ball in baseball or softball that is thrown with speed that ends up, when caught, at a point higher than the release point.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > F. J.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > F.J.,
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick response! I appreciate it very much, however, I am wondering if you could direct me to the peer reviewed scientific literature that states these claims (i.e., a ball cannot rise under normal conditions). Thanks again.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > John
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> > > > > > > > > > > > F.J.,
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> > > > > > > > > > > > This statement obviously came from somewhere, if you could direct me to this resource that might be helpful as well: "To make a ball rise it would have to spin backward, toward the thrower, with enough velocity to make it overcome the pull of gravity. A base ball thrown 100 mph over 55 ft will drop 2.61 feet." ---Thanks.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > John
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > John,
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> > > > > > > > > > > The science is all over the place. Look in a book called "keep your eye on the ball." It has a section on this very subject. Even gives you the formula.
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> > > > > > > > > > > The horizontal movement of the ball has no impact on it's vertical movement. A ball drops at the same rate if dropped or thrown. A ball thrown 100 mph and a ball dropped from the same height as the release point, will both hit the ground at the same time. This was the same experiment done from the leaning tower in Italy a few hundred years ago. The formula for this is common for high school physics students. I just can't think of it right now but if you look for it, it's easy to find.
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> > > > > > > > > > > I have read scientific data about seeing and hitting and have talked to the scientist who do the experiments. This fact about a ball rising is commonly understood. It's so common that it's a "given" and hardly discussed in serious papers about seeing and hitting. Look in any physics book or ask a physics teacher. This information is common knowledge to any one outside the softball community.
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> > > > > > > > > > > Incidently, you will find that many coaches get their information from T V announcers who will say anything to fill air time. You will also find that ex player-announcers are the worst at making the game more complicated. I think they feel that they have to know all the intimate details of the game and they don't. You will notice that even TV announcers do not talk about the "riseing fastball" any more and they are the biggest idiots in the world. god, can any body shut Tim McCarver up?
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> > > > > > > > > > > F. J.
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> > > > > > > > > > How do explain fastpitch softball catchers having problems handling the so called 'Rise ball' even after they are the ones who called for it? Many feel the ball jerks up.
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> > > > > > > > > I haven't noticed that fastpitch cathcers have a particular problem. But if they do, its not because the ball rises it's because the ball is always high and many times, with no one on base, which is common if fastpitch, they have to get up off their haunches to get it.
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> > > > > > > > > By the way, why is the rise ball always high?
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> > > > > > > > It's not. Low "rises" are common in the men's game and not unheard of in the women's game.
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> > > > > > > > If a pitcher could throw a ball low, say below the knee, and have it rise into the strike zone, nobody would swing at it let alone hit it if they did? So, why don't they do it?
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> > > > > > > > They do. Get on ASA's website and find the major men's Nationals site and date if you're curious. The girls I have watched throw a low rise are very difficult to hit. Does it rise? Hmmm. All I can say from a scientific point of view is, it sure does something strange...and that is enough. As to the rise up in the zone, put a camera on it and maybe it's not rising. But sit on the bucket and catch a good riseball pitcher and you will swear it did. Assuming that is, that you didn't catch it in your forehead as it came over the top of the glove. lol
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> > > > > > > > The riseball. Does it rise? Always a great thread starter. Maybe the illusion crowd is right. But the people who adamantly argue the illusion theory are rarely if ever people who have caught a great riseball pitcher or sat behind the catcher and watched a great riseball pitcher. Whatever it does, it's a son of a gun to hit. Now certainly there are plenty of pretenders and plenty who really think they are throwing a riseball who aren't. Most pitchers who claim a riseball are merely throwing a spiral football spin fastball from low to high. A good rise should have AT LEAST half backspin half spiral spin. This will give you most of the lift. Perfect would of course be 6-12 spin, but almost no one throws this. It's usually leaned over slightly or oriented slightly toward bullet spin. So, does it rise? First let's get the facts straight. The underhand backspin pitch commonly called a rise in fastpitch is commonly thrown high in the girls game but does get thrown at the knees occassionally. When thrown high, if the batters will hack, she won't bring it into the zone. A good pitcher can and will, if necessary, throw it in the zone and make the hitter miss. If a pitcher can't do this, then the rise is merely a throwaway sucker pitch of limited usefulness to that pitcher.
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> > > > > > > > The "does it rise" question is a fun thread starter, but the only useful question is, can the pitcher throw it in the zone and still make the hitter miss. And then of course, how the heck did he or she do that? : )
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> > > > > > > > Mark H.
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> > > > > > > Sounds like Flat Earth thinking to me.
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> > > > > > Well at least it drew out a well thought out reasoned response. ; )
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> > > > > > Mark H.
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> > > > > Mark H. Jack M. and everyone else,
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> > > > > We have so many people on this site who claim to be students of hitting and baseball. Some, like Jack, say they are taking a scientific approach and use scientist as advisors or consultants.
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> > > > > It should be easy to decide if it is possible for a person to throw a baseball or softball with enough spin to make it "curve up." Why is this such a big deal? Jack, where are you?
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> > > > > My point is that Mark H., in the previous post said "Well at least it drew out a well thought out reasoned response. ; )"
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> > > > > Actually, it can't be a reasoned response if it is not possible to make a ball rise. You can't make a reasoned point if the point you are making is something that is not possible.
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> > > > > This is a "yes or no" question and should be resolved once and for all. If this site cannot resolved such a basic question then what is the point. Jack, you can forget about your "scientific approach" because it means nothing. Anything and everything is valid and no one is right or wrong.
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> > > > > Louy, Louy
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> > > > YOU just made a well thought out reasoned response (which you say is impossible?). Well...somewhat thought out anyway. Better than the flat earth put down. As to this thread relating to Jack, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care a fig what riseballs do or don't do so I'm not sure why you felt a challenge to him was in order. After all, this is a hitting site. If some want to discuss other aspects of the game...well, Jack is a patient man and I doubt he minds. But I also doubt he is interested in another research project. : )
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> > > > As to pitching in general of both sports. As you know, spin, speed and location are varied in an attempt to make the batter fail. The "rise" is a variation in spin in an attempt to make the ball do something other than what the batter expects it to do. To this extent it works. To argue otherwise, would be laughable. And making the batter fail is, after all, the point of pitching. Is it not?
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> > > > Does it actually rise? Fun off season thread topic. Nothing more. But if you have never caught one, or sat behind the catcher and watched a good one, it's not all that interesting discussing it with you.
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> > > > Mark H.
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> > > For those who are interested. Whether the ball rises or not is a consideration for two reasons. Much of softball hitting is based on hitting the rise ball. The idea of swinging from the shoulder down on the ball was supposed to help batters hit the rise ball.
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> > > But, the real point, zinged over Mark's head like a wild fastball. If a simple physical fact such as "does the ball rise or not" can't be established then none of the "science" used for hitting is of any value. How can people have a discussion about hitting if people refuse to accept a physical fact as a given.
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> > > It doesn't matter if the fact is related to baseball or not. It's about the nature of the discussion. Whether people are going to discuss any subject in a way that makes sense. As a minimum all parties have to accept some provable "facts" as given. If not, then there can be no meaningful discussion. If people are going to hold on to their "flat earth" thinking no matter what the scientific fact are, then can be no real discussion.
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> > > Louy Louy
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> > If baseball is so enlightened when it comes to swing instruction, how do you explain this? ; ) Sure looks like he's training to hit a ball coming up through the zone to me. And it seems like the "swing down for backspin" exhortations come from baseball sites. Thanks God for Mankin, Epstein and Nyman.
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> > http://clutchhitting.com/pages/ss.htm
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> Louy Louy,
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> Great point. I think you nailed this point and Mark H.
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> I don't think you are attacking Jack. I would like to read his comments on this subject.
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> The site mentioned in the last post is usless. You cont see the position of the elbow so you don't know how the guy got into some of the positions. Also, the bat does not show up in the photos so you are not sure where it is.

I would say this site is worse than useless. It should be obvious these stills are promoting pushing the hands linearly toward the pitcher and swinging down.

Mark H.