Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Mon Sep 23 06:02:27 2002

According to Epstein, being "inside the ball" means "the hands follow the rotating body around its axis".
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> > > > > > > > > > Would anyone care to express agreement or disagreement? And the more elaboration the better. As a matter of fact, the more opinions expressed the better.
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> > > > > > > > > "staying inside the ball" or "hands inside the ball" is one of those 'inside' baseball expressions. Either its new or its something just coming to public attention. TV analysts are starting to use the phrase but only in the last year or two as far as I remember.
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> > > > > > > > > On the surface, its a stupid comment. If your hands are outside the ball, the ball would hit you in the forearm. But thats not what is meant.
> > > > > > > > > When pull hitters try to pull outside pitches and ground out to SS (right handed hitters) they 'hook the ball'. That is the opposite of staying inside the ball. However that is the extreme and easy example. But it does point to the key to staying inside the ball.
> > > > > > > > > When the arms extend and the hands release the barrel, the swing is done. If this happens before contact, the hitter loses considerable power. That in fact is what happens when a hitter hooks an outside pitch. The hitter got 'outside the ball'. By this I guess it means that he hit the outside part of the ball - beyond the center back of the ball.
> > > > > > > > > But from that you'd think that in order to stay inside the ball you have to hit the inside of the ball and always hit opposite field.
> > > > > > > > > But that is not true.
> > > > > > > > > It is true that opposite field hitters stay inside the ball. Boggs was a great example, so was Gwynn. It is not a question of the barrel trailing the hands. It is that the hands stay in - don't extend out to contact.
> > > > > > > > > Steve Garvey talked about hitting as 'hitting with short stubby arms'. Jack talks about keeping the back elbow in against the ribs into contact, not pushing the top hand toward the ball. Doing what Jack says, keeps the hands in. When the hands fly out, the swing gets long. If the hands come out early, the hitter didn't stay inside the ball.
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> > > > > > > > > However there is much confusion about this. A commentator will praise a hitter for staying inside the ball, then later see a homerun and note that the hitter 'really got extended on that one.'
> > > > > > > > > How do you really get extended AND stay inside the ball?
> > > > > > > > > Seems like those concepts fight each other.
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> > > > > > > > > In reality they don't. All good swings start with the hands 'in'. This is the same as the circular hand path. The hands follow the shoulder turn, they don't fly out or cast as the shoulders turn.
> > > > > > > > > On middle-in pitches the hands must stay in longer in the turn, on outside pitches extension happens earlier to lengthen the swing to reach the ball.
> > > > > > > > > In both cases the hands stay in until near contact. Singles hitters like Gwynn and Boggs keep the hands in all the way. Great contact, less power. STARTING extension before contact - not reaching, but releasing the hands into contact is more powerful. When bottom hand torque takes over the pull back from the bottom hand throws the barrel forward. This has to happen into contact, not before contact.
> > > > > > > > > Some hitters like McGuire try to get a lot of extension into contact. He stands off the plate to make all pitches 'outside'. Bonds crowds the plate to create lots of inside pitches and 'stays inside the ball' very well. Much less 'extension' by Bonds.
> > > > > > > > > In both cases however, the hands 'stay inside' for most of the swing, then release into contact, but don't extend and release before contact.
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> > > > > > > > > IMO 'staying inside the ball' is a better cue than 'short swing' since you can rotate and stay inside the ball. Short swings are too often taught by pushing the hands staight toward contact. While this is supposed to shorten/quicken the swing, in fact the swing gets longer and the hands extend early resulting in hooked outside pitches, and inside pitches pulled foul. Both those results are from being 'outside the ball'.
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> > > > > > > > > I think of 'hands inside the ball' as meaning that the hands stayed with the shoulder rotation into contact.
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> > > > > > > > Major Dan, I had always taken the term in a very literal sense, which means to me the term didn't make sense and therefore had no meaning. That is, except for the extreme caster, how could the hands NOT be inside the ball without the hands or arms being hit by the ball.
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> > > > > > > > But on reflection of Epstein's definition, "the hands follow the rotating body around its axis", I'm not so sure that this differs from your "hands stayed with the shoulder rotation into contact" , or "The hands follow the shoulder turn, they don't fly out or cast as the shoulders turn". It seems that all 3 statements (Epstein's statement and your two statements)are saying the same thing, and furthermore make a lot of sense.
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> > > > > > > > I have always thought of the swing, not in terms of "inside the ball" but in terms of the top arm "L". At contact,inside pitch the top arm has an "L" and with contact being made slightly in front of the plate (this reference point, of course being dependent upon where the stride foot lands). A middle pitch would result in somewhat less of an
> > > > > > > > "L" and with contact being perhaps even with front edge of hope plate. An outside pitch would straighten out the "L" just a little bit more & with contact being just a bit farther back from the front edge of home plate.
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> > > > > > > > I shall mull this over, but my preliminary assesment is that my "L" "theory" seems to fit right in with all 3 of the above statements. In the meantime I hope others will respond to these posts.
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> > > > > > > Bart-
> > > > > > > If you think in terms of contact relative to the front knee rather than to homeplate, it eliminates the quessing somewhat and is IMO for to the point. Inside pitch slightly in front of the front knee, outside pitch slightly behind, middle pitch about even.
> > > > > > > What I don't understand is the people who talk about inside pitch 2' in front of homeplate, outside pitch at the bac corner. no way those contacts are real. The balls would go foul.
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> > > > > > 2 feet in front of home plate is absurd. It would take full extension and more time, thus a "long swing". Back corner for os pitch is useful only if you want the ball to go foul. For example,if you have 2 strikes on you, you get an os pitch at the knees & you would like another chance at a more hittable pitch, this would be a good strategy.
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> > > > > A term that I hear and use occasionally is "hitting around the ball", I think this really applies in the 2 feet out front scenario. In fastpitch, hitting from the open lower half is a sin somewhat akin to murder. We all know what kind of swing this creates as the hitter attempts to hit with the closed and firm front side. The hitter probably could not make contact at any point closer than 2 feet out in front, of course we know that the only person that will have to worry about fielding the ball is a base coach. It's possible that if the hitter placed her arms where they would be at mid swing, (extended straight over the top of plate), she might actually get hit on the arms or hands by an inside pitch.
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> > > > I think "hitting around the ball" is the opposite of staying inside the ball. Yes inside pitches get pulled foul. But John Valentin (RedSox, Mets) hooks a lot of outside pitches, hits around the ball and grounds out to SS on them. PatA, are we on the same page here? I think so...
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> > > Yes, absolutely, I guess I suggested hitting around the ball as a possible opposite of staying inside the ball. A-Rod seems to have some success pulling the outside pitch, I saw him do this against Boston a couple weeks ago. This was a pitch that he definitely had to go out to get and yet pulled it hard in 5 - 6 hole. My asessment was that there may have been some torso adjustment, (don't want to use the term lunging), that he used to accomplish this. Still it would suggest, (in my limited thinking/knowledge), that there was seperation away from his axis. Does that make a lick of sense?. Thanks
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> > In the 'Is ARod a Linear Hitter' thread, Coach posted that ARod used to stride to 70-30 (weight forward), now is more 50-50. He did dive/lunge but in a professional way - didn't dump his shoulders over his front foot and chop. But he still does that on occasion. I have a pretty good mental image of his swing being like that.
> > But Jack has shown how you can hit through the middle on outside pitches without getting outside the ball.
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> From what I have seen of H.S. and college hitters, one of the top flaws is trying to hit the outside part of the ball on an outside pitch. What is especially peculiar, though is the fix many coaches have. They prescribe the fence drill when in fact the fence drill (if done correctly, of course) works best on perfecting mechanics on an inside pitch.

Just conjecturing, but I suspect that they use the fence drill to promote 'hands ahead of barrel', figuring the barrel is ahead of the hands if you hit the outside of the ball.
Many here including me have a problem with the fence drill, especially as it is usually done. And Jack has shown better mechanics to hit outside pitches than barrel lag and late wrist snap.