Posted by: Aaron () on Sat Aug 31 13:11:33 2002

Jack M.,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > S. Procito has injected into the discussion the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed. I don't know about the percentage but I agree that a lot of power is a result of where the ball is struck. A fast bat hitting the bottom quarter of the ball
> > > > > > > > is just a higher pop-up then a slower bat.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But, I never read anything on this, or other sites about the part of the swing that is designed to control the swing and hit the ball in the middle, or near the middle. It's never even mentioned. Why is that?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > S. Procito states that the swing is a "balance of speed and control." I do not think any one can disagree. So, what are the control elements of the swing?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Frank Jessup
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A book was written by 2 scientists (one author was Bahill, I don't remember the name of the other) and they showed that the optimal point of contact is 1/4 inch below center. It never got much attention, with the obsession of THT and all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is THT or any other technique mutually exclusive of hitting the middle of the ball?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed"
> > > > > > Which would go farther - a ball hit around the middle with 70 mph batspeed or a ball hit around the middle with 90 mph batspeed?
> > > > > > Don't compare apples and oranges.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stats to think about
> > > > > > Top 10 Lifetime Batting Averages
> > > > > > Player Lifetime BA Lifetime HR Lifetime Ks Comments
> > > > > > Ty Cobb .366 117 357 1905-1928 primarily deadball era, pure 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > Rogers Hornsby .358 301 679 1915-1937 partly deadball era, at retirement 2nd all time on HR list
> > > > > > Tris Speaker .344 107 220 1907-1928 mostly deadball era
> > > > > > Ted Williams .344 521 709 1939-1960
> > > > > > power and average
> > > > > > Babe Ruth .342 714 1330 1914-1935
> > > > > > power and average. all time strikeout leader at the time. worst year 91 K's
> > > > > > Harry Heilman .342 183 550 1914-1932, 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > Bill Terry .341 154 449 1923-1936 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > George Sisler .340 102 327 1915-1930 partly deadball era, 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > Lou Gehrig .340 493 790 1923-1939
> > > > > > power and average
> > > > > > Tony Gwynn .338 135 434 1982-2001
> > > > > > 'averages' hitter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 10 ten BA all-time. I left off 1800's players.
> > > > > > 5 of 10 started careers in the deadball era where they established their style.
> > > > > > Gehrig, Ruth, Williams and Hornsby did it all - 40% of the top BA's were also top power hitters.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Top Ten Career OPS (on base % plus slugging %) (stronger measure of productive hitter than BA)
> > > > > > Babe Ruth
> > > > > > Ted Williams
> > > > > > Lou Gehrig
> > > > > > Jimmie Foxx .325 534 1311 1925-1945
> > > > > > Hank Greenberg .313 331 844 1930-1947
> > > > > > Frank Thomas .319 348 847 1990-present
> > > > > > Rogers Hornsby
> > > > > > Barry Bonds .292 567 1282 1986-present
> > > > > > Manny Ramirez .312 277 927 1993-present
> > > > > > Mark McGuire .263 583 1596 1986-2001
> > > > > > (numbers through end of 2001)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The same four guys show up! And you choose who you'd rather have of the other six from these lists.
> > > > > > Yes there is some correlation between high power more Ks, high average, fewer Ks but what's more important is those who hit for power and average. Any rotational hitters in that crew?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most imortantly, how important are K's anyway?
> > > > > > Production, OPS, runs generated, etc mean much more than K's and batting average.
> > > > > > If you do not understand why OPS is an important measure, then educate yourself.
> > > > > > www.baseballprospectus.com
> > > > > > read Bill James, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > One should not dismiss out of hand an argument that they are totally ignorant of. If you haven't read the book, then you don't understand what the argument is.Read the book and you will see that they were not comparing batspeeds of 70 vs. 90. I might also add that a number of major league hitters have said they hit below center. If you don't understand the logic, read the book. Take my word for it, buddy, there is a lot more to hitting then "top hand torque".
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> > > >
> > > > Thanks, buddy. I feel so much more enlightened.
> > > >
> > > > And I have Bahill's book and I have read it.
> > > > Where the bat hits the ball and how it gets there are two different issues.
> > > > Are you suggesting that if you swing more slowly you can be more sure to hit the ball 1/4 inch below center, than if you swing faster?
> > > >
> > > > What specifically is the argument you are referring to?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am referring to this ridiculous argument: "the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed"
> > > Which would go farther - a ball hit around the middle with 70 mph batspeed or a ball hit around the middle with 90 mph batspeed?
> > > Don't compare apples and oranges."
> > >
> > > If you really read the book,you would know that it says nothing about hitting around the ball, but rather below the center of the ball.
> > >
> > > And when Frank Jessup makes the point "S. Procito states that the swing is a "balance of speed and control." I do not think any one can disagree. So, what are the control elements of the swing?", you srart rambling about Bill James. Dude, you have a lot to learn about hitting if you think that as long as you hit a homerun here and there, K's are ok.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Phil,
> >
> > Your the one who is off base, pick off, your out!!
> >
> > No one in this thread is talking about 'hitting around the ball', hooking or pulling the ball.
> >
> > The thread is based on the sweet spot, and getting all of the ball. There is a study floating around somewhere on the net comparing solid contact , ball exit velicoty, bat speed. The study showed that high bat speed and poor contact lead to decreased ball exit velicoty, while lower bat speed and solid contact (sweet spot) created higher ball exit velicoty. Over-all I believe the lower batspeed and use of the sweet spot showed greater results.
> >
> > The study included several age groups, although I believe it was mostly HS, College, and perhaps some professional hitters. The results from all groups had the same outcome.
> >
> > It's a rare swing when it flows just right, oh yea, feels real good.
> >
> > The rest of the time it's a mixture of that feeling, and even solid basehits feel good (they have that same feel).
> >
> > There's no mechanic that creates this swing, you cannot command or force the swing. Your left with what just happens, good or bad, what was I thinking, why did I do that, yea that's it, good adjustment perhaps not a great swing.
> >
> > I've heard commits on Pete Rose always hitting the ball on the screws (only the sweet spot). Pete didn't have 'batspeed', neither did Wade, they used solid contact and the ball was struck fairly hard/well.
> >
> > Swing-It
> >>Swing it,Wade Boggs is a friend of mine,I was playing catch with Rose when my career ended I know their swings well and they are different.Rose had batspeed he also had rotational mechanics quite often,great circular hand path,but he did not load as much as some power hitters and he worked off a different swing plane.Wade's 3000 hit was rotational and it was a homerun.What he and gwynn did in the show is phenominal because they seem to be the exception to the rule that can consistently catch up to the M.L. fastball with a slow bat and hit it squarely so often but also they had to have a great knack for placement between infielders by using bat angle at contact so it got through the infield so often safely.The rotational hitter to me does,nt just hit homeruns does'nt strike out alot necessarily but is allowed to get to the ball faster so he can wait longer and make a better decision which is very important in hittingat the M.L. level,some prefer to lift the ball more than others maybe more power maybe more K;s sometimes but it is hands to the ball that makes so mant kids bow out of the game early.

Boggs was a slap hitter just like Gwynn and Carew.If more hiters were using Jacks methods there would not have been a place for guys like this.