Posted by: Derby Boy () on Mon Aug 26 14:53:58 2002

The back elbow debate seems to have no end. Should the elbow be up or should it be down? To me, there is little question. A-Rod, Manny, Nomar, Griffey all have the back elbow up, as do about 95 percent of pros. And even these guys that start with their back elbows down always bring it back up as they are loading their swing. Jack and anybody out there, is there really any question in this argument?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg-
> > > > > > Your observation is pretty accurate, though there are some guys who don't raise the elbow as much and some who raise the elbow well above shoulder level.
> > > > > > What is more important is why that elbow is up at the start of the swing. Where does it go when the swing starts.
> > > > > > I've seen instructors suggest getting the elbow up so the top hand can drive forward at the ball.
> > > > > > I've seen instructors suggest keeping the elbow down to avoid top hand dominance (not driving the top hand forward).
> > > > > > Jack and Mike Epstein talk about the elbow being up, then moving down to the side of the ribs.
> > > > > > What do you think the top elbow should be doing?
> > > > >
> > > > > Macgwire keeps his elbow down. Of course, since he extends bottom arm more than most hitters, by Batspeed.com's definition that makes Macgwire a "linear" and therefore a poor hitter.
> > > > > >
> > > > Derby Boy
> > > > Jack has stated that he has no problem with extension as long as the batter initiates the swing with the proper forces
> > > > The Hitman
> > >
> > > Hitman, in viewing a clip, what criteria do you use to determine if a swing is being initiated with proper forces? Thanks
> >
> > To All,
> >
> > I will end this argument. Then the swing starts the upper arm of the back arm goes to the side against the body elbow pointing straight down to the ground. This is where it belongs there should be no disagreement on this point. If you disagree on this point you really shouldn't be in this discussion.
> >
> > So, the elbow goes to the side when the swing is launched. Therefore, before the launch it dosent matter where the elbow is. Unless you put it in a place that prevents you from getting where its supposed to be when the swing starts. The thing can be in you ear for all I care as long as it goes to the side in preperation to launch the swing.
> >
> > When teaching younger kids it might help to have them keep the arm at the side in the stance to minimize the movement.
> >
> > S. P>
>
> Derby Boy
> Many great hitters such as McGuire initiate the swing by pulling the bat back in a circular motion while using the bottom hand as a pivot point just prior to shoulder rotation, but on inside pitches some batters with static bats such as McGuire won't start pulling the top hand back until shoulder rotation starts.
> The Hitman

Hitman, I said " Macgwire keeps his elbow down. Of course, since he extends bottom arm more than most hitters, by Batspeed.com's definition that makes Macgwire a "linear" and therefore a poor hitter."

In response you said "Jack has stated that he has no problem with extension as long as the batter initiates the swing with the proper forces"

Then I asked "Hitman, in viewing a clip, what criteria do you use to determine if a swing is being initiated with proper forces? Thanks".

Then you responded "Many great hitters such as McGuire initiate the swing by pulling the bat back in a circular motion while using the bottom hand as a pivot point just prior to shoulder rotation, but on inside pitches some batters with static bats such as McGuire won't start pulling the top hand back until shoulder rotation starts."

This last statement does not answer what criteria you use to determine if a swing is being initated with proper forces.That's ok, I'll answer the question myself. The fact is, all hitters use a circular hand path. You can come up with unnecessary & imaginary gimmicks like picking a guitar string all you want, but the fact is,unless you are taught to do something unnatural (like fence drills), the hand path will be naturally circular.

I know Jack is fond of saying "linear" and "rotational" mechanics don't mix, but Jack's premise is that using for example "full extension" principles this means (to Jack) that "rotational" mechanics (like a circular hand path) can not be used.

This premise is wrong because you CAN have a bone fide, Jack Mankin circular hand path and still come to full extension. I don't think anyone believes macgwire or Griffey are "linear", but clearly they contact at near-full exrension. Full extension comes from the last frame before contact, and instead of the bat head continuing it's circular path it sort of "reaches" out in front more. I happen to think that keeping the "L" in the bottom arm is best but nevertheless I don't think this one single mechanic constitutes the difference in "linear" and rotational" mechanics.

As far as the high elbow is concerned, it is nothing more and nothing less than a cocking mechanism and a matter of personal preference. Delgado has a high elbow, Macgwire does not.