Posted by: Mark H. () on Fri Jul 5 11:25:38 2002

I went to the article at beabetter.com.In part the author said "a short swing must be a straight line from launch position (hit position) to contact point."
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> > > > > > > > > > > > This seems to conflict with a lot of the stuff at this site. The author is Rick down, hitting coach of the New York Yankees. How many times have they been World Champions the last several years?
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> > > > > > > > > > > Valid question. Which Yankee hitters would you point to as examples of this straight line (linear) hitting? Must be at least several if the hitting coach is teaching this wouldn't you think? I have lots of good clips of rotational hitters but I can't seem to find clips of linear hitters so I look forward to your examples.
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> > > > > > > > > > You miss the point.
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> > > > > > > > > Sorry. I'm getting older. Help me out. What did I miss?
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> > > > > > > > I understood your point to be "if the Yankees hitting coach says one thing and Jack says another, shouldn't we believe the Yankees hitting coach?" If this was not your point then, yes, I missed it. My point is, if the Yankees hitting coach is teaching this, and if it really works, then surely we can pick out several top Yankees who are doing this. I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I am, however, looking forward to seeing linear Yankee hitters on clips. Personally, I thought Jack, Tom and company were full of it when I first started reading about these ideas. Now that I have come across to the dark side (rotational hitting), if linear hitting is really the right way, I wish you or someone would 'splain it to me before I teach more kids the wrong thing. : )
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> > > > > > > > It just seems like when the rotational advocates talk about their theories they have clips to back it up along with a coherent unified, complete description of the swing that meshes with what the human body actually does and is. Now if I've been hoodwinked and bamboozled by these snake oil salesmen, then please, show me.
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> > > > > > > You have clips, I have clips, the pros have clips.(Funny thing, though, you never SHOW your clips).
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> > > > > > Here's one. http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000538.html
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> > > > > > But pros have something that apparently you do not have and that is BASEBALL EXPERIENCE.
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> > > > > > And I study them at every opportunity. Including what they do rather than just what they say.
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> > > > > > You see, there is a difference in looking at a clip and reading into it what you want it to look like,
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> > > > > > Actually, I was dragged kicking and screaming to these conclusions so I certainly didn't want to read these things into it. But in terms of mis interpretation of clips, you may have a point. Show me. I'm not challenging you so much as I really would like to hear your thoughts and explanations in detail. Nothing livens up this forum like a dissenter and Jack is good enough to let the conversation happen even when someone is calling him wrong. That shows a certain confidence, don't you think?
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> > > > > > and in actually having been in the batters box. Again, outside of your small circle, who promotes your theories?
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> > > > > > In terms of straight hand path versus circular hand path? As far as talking about it we could, as I said, start with Ted. As far as doing it, ever watch Bagwell or Bonds or...I"ll tell you what. Watch the first tape of Epstein's if you want to see slo mo clips of great hitters from yesterday and today demonstrating the use of rotational hip first, tight connection, circular handpath mechanics.
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> > > > > Maury,
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> > > > > Below there is a thread with the subject "Slump." In that thread is a post by Joe A. dated July 4th. In it Joe A. comments on articles published on a web site by your Yankee hitting coach. Read it and learn something.
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> > > > >>I read quickly through the ideas of Rick Down most was great stuff about seeing the ball better .Then I read about mechanics and he spoke of rotational mechanics a stationary axis of the spine to rotate around and he even said the word "torque".I wa shocked at how much he sounded like what we discuss.A couple of things I believe was mis printed about the direction of which hand was facing up and down,but one thing I thought I saw was that he said the barrel of bat is above the hands at contact,which I know to be false ,surely this must be a misprint since all my footage of his hitters have barrels below the hands at contact.Maybe his wording and what he meant is being interpreted differently here in this discussion.
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> > > What it all boils down to is that you guys say you are rotational and everyone else is linear,
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> > No not at all. Several well know rotational proponents come to mind and Jack is saying the great majority of pros are rotational. It just seems that many of the instructors are still teaching mechanics that came to the forefront in the light aluminum bat/astro turf era.
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> > and all of your assumptions about what is linear is based on nothing more than guys like Lau saying things like "knob to the ball".
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> > That would be an oversimplification as I'm sure you realize.
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> > Yet, like Hitman said, why do hitters act upon this cue with results?
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> > I believe he said it could be useful with some and harmful to others. This is why it is important to have a complete swing model in mind and know where you want the student to get to and why. This way you can avoid misapplication of useful cues that may, in fact, not truly reflect reality.
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> > Is it because "linear" really works?
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> > It certainly can "work". But not if your goal is to hit for power AND average. If you wish to discuss the limitations and strong points of linear mechanics, we could do that too.
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> > Or could it be that the CUE works?
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> > Lots of cues can work in certain situations as was pointed out. That doesn't necessarily mean it reflects reality. Eventually, the student should understand reality but the coach better understand it right now.
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> > Maybe you are misinterpreting the RESULTS of this cue.
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> > How so?
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> > The point is, you may THINK there is a disparity between "rotationalism" and "linearism" that doesn't actually exist.
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> > I would say that first depends on your definitions but please expand on your statement.
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> > I suggest to you that though you may think you have all the answers you don't, and before trashing the so-called linearists you shuld seek answers from them & you might learn something.
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> > As I am now doing?
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> > Of course it's hard to learn something if you think you already have all the answers.
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> > I think most here are very interested in hearing dissenting views. Just be prepared for a detailed and thorough examination of those views. This can be painful for those who are emotionally committed to a certain point of view but not really prepared to answer all questions relating to that point of view.
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> > You make interesting assertions and maybe you are right or partially right. Too early to tell. You have the floor.
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> "and all of your assumptions about what is linear is based on nothing more than guys like Lau saying things like "knob to the ball".
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> > That would be an oversimplification as I'm sure you realize."
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> No that is not an oversimplification. All hitting instructors teach the obvious, that the hips must rotate.But you take a term like "knob to the ball",and because you THINK it causes something to happen (which it doesn't) you attach a label to it ("linearism")

I'm sure different coaches mean different things with different cues. If an instructor wanted you to move your hands across in front of your chest keeping your bathead back near your body until arm extension had been substantially completed, how would you feel about that?

For instance: http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=1&Topic=1121