Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Sat Mar 4 15:45:10 2000

>>>Sosa shows the same abilities as Edgar in having better swing timing with using torque. Both, Edgar and Sosa can hit with "authority" to all fields (they can go with the outside pitch or pull it). They can handle a wider range of the strike, inside (and I mean inside), high in the strike zone, outside and high, outside and low. Their hands don't stay back, but drift forward with their bodies during the stride. This allows them to initiate torque with their hands closer to their back shoulder. Edgar and Sosa have a "shorter arc" (as I see it). Keeping the hands closer to their shoulder allows them to adjust when they apply torque and this includes adjusting torque for contact locations (and pitch speeds).

What do you think inhibits Griffey from being able to make adjusts to his swing timing and pitch locations?

Do you think he leaves the hands to far back (walks away from his hands)? Has to start applying torque sooner, because of a longer arc? Anyone who has looked or watched Griffey will see that most of his home runs are hit on outside pitch locations. Like Mac he pulls them. I watched him hit for many years since I live in Washington. He doesn't adjust well to inside pitches, contrary to what people might say about pitching him inside.

Griffey often reaches "full extension" (bad word) at contact. I would think it would be a combination of taking/leaving the hands back to far, a longer arc needed because of the distance the hands are behind him, resulting in starting to apply torque sooner. This combination would seem to cut down on ones ability to adjust swing timing while applying torque. But, if the "Timing" is right in Griffey's swing, "Good bye baseball. <<<

Hi Shawn

After reading yours and Tom's post, I am finding both of you are becoming a tough act to follow. Your observations and analysis of batting mechanics are more advanced than those of most major league coaches.

My study of Griffey's swing occurred in the mid 1990s. He always had great rotational and lead arm mechanics (lead shoulder pull at contact). What kept him from becoming an even greater hitter was his inconsistency in torque initiation. The amount of bat head angular displacement in the first couple of swing frames varied from month to month. When I looked at his swing during the Home Run Derby a couple of years ago, I thought he had put it all together. A month later he looked like another batter --- very little top hand torque during initiation.

Shawn I have no problem with "extension." My concern is that coaches and players may come to believe linear hand extension increases bat speed. --- When we refer to extension in the rotational swing we are mainly referring to the back arm since the lead arm remains fairly straight during the swing. Extension of the back arm is governed by pitch location. For pitches from the middle-in, the lead shoulder will fully rotate and the back arm will have little extension (classic "L" position). As pitches move farther to the outside, the shoulders will rotate less allowing the bat to take a wider arc. This means, the wider the pitch, the more the back arm will need to extend.

It would be reasonable to assume that on outside pitches and thus less shoulder rotation, there would be less bat speed generated. But this has not been the case. Recognizing an outside pitch, the great hitters start shoulder rotation a fraction later while applying more top hand torque. This generates a wider hand-path but with about the same rate of angular lead arm displacement. This results in bat speeds equal to (or greater than) those developed on inside pitches with more lead shoulder pull.

Here is Tom's description from his post above.
>>> Some combination of strategy/reaction/experience optimizes how this happens for a given pitch.One interesting observation from looking at clips,especially Manny Ramirez and Edgar Martinez is how the sequencing changes for different locations.Take a look for this and let me know what you think.Unfortunately,you can't control for pitch velocity so this could be completely off base.On the inside pitch/early timing the hips start to open then the back elbow comes down,then the shoulders start to open.On the ouside pitch,the back elbow comes down as hip rotation starts,then the shoulders start.It is as if the timing is somewhwt independent for the upper and lower body.In either case the bottom hand stays back and is pulled forward smoothly by shoulder rotation,while the elbow comes down into the side beginning torque before the shoulder is started.There is also probably the beginning of swing plane adjustment here before the shoulders start.Let me know if this fits the video you have of rotational hitters or what your sequencing/timing ideas are. (Tom) <<<