Posted by: Scott B (batspeed@integritycorp.com) on Fri May 24 13:52:23 2002

> Hi Tom
>
> In your post you stated; “Swinging on plane is well addressed by Epsteins cues on how to work the front elbow at and after launch.” --- I have real trouble understanding Epstein’s “weathervaning” cue for developing the correct swing plane.
>
> I have stressed in my video, that the lead-elbow MUST always stay in the plane of the swing. If the elbow and bat are not in the same plane, the swing loses power and consistency of contact. Therefore, if the pitch were higher (higher swing plane), the elbow would also move to a higher plane. Obviously for a lower pitch, the swing plane and elbow would move lower. But Epstein’s “weathervaning” cue seems to teach something quite different. He states; ---
>
> “When the hitter is able to match the plane of his swing to the plane of the pitch, his lead elbow works in an approximate 6" slot: if the pitch is perceived as "down," the lead elbow works up in the slot. If the pitch is perceived as up, the lead elbow makes the adjustment and works down. The weathervaning of the lead elbow allows this to happen. The proper swing allows for dynamic adjustment.”
>
> Why would you have a cue that tells the batter to work his lead-elbow down on high pitches and up on lower pitches?
>
> Jack Mankin
===================================================
Great discussion. It's like Mike E. says, "Do we teach what we see?" Seems like we can write 10,000 words describing the smallest movements of the body during a swing (as evidenced by this forum), and still not communicate.

Short answer:

"Therefore, if the pitch were higher (higher swing plane), the elbow would also move to a higher plane." It's not physically possible (see links with Bonds example) to move the lead elbow up on a high pitch, if the hitter maintains the "power V" position. Second, Mike's "weathervaning" concept describes the body's position tilting backward slightly during the swing, as controlled by the rear leg.

Long answer:

I was researching the mechanics of the back elbow and noticed that Mike recommends a launch position of both elbows down (even), and Jack recommends the rear elbow start up. I spoke with Mike yesterday about it (and reviewed the documentation links I'll include here). He recommends starting the BACK elbow down, because he feels that most hitters lack the ability to get the elbow down from an elevated position in time to prevent casting. In fact, with my daughter's instruction on video, we see her back elbow forcing her hands away from her body at the start of the swing. She is sometimes able to keep her hands inside, but for the time being, we're going to start with the rear elbow down, until she's got her basic lower body mechanics "burned in". (She loves Jacks "elbow" up position, and won't surrender it. But she also recognizes that "casting" is death to batspeed.)

I know this discussion describes lead elbow mechanics, but I prefaced my comments with rear elbow mechanics, because I don't think you can separate them. Mike advocates keeping the lead elbow, rear elbow, and upper arms and torso moving as an integral unit (i.e. "power V", though I don't know if that's his terminology). To maintain that "V", the lead elbow must work in a direction roughly opposite the rear elbow (which should be tucked during the swing, as both Jack and Mike agree). That would normally cause the lead elbow to rise with the incoming path of the ball, and Jack states above, for a pitch DOWN in the zone (where most good pitchers throw them).

What about pitches up on the zone? As part of his swing mechanics, Mike advocates a rearward "tilt" to the body, controlled by the rear leg (i.e. inverted "L" on a RHB), to enable the hitter to match the plain of the swing to the path of the ball. That is his "weathervaning" concept. To get at a pitch up in the zone, and still maintain that "power V", the lead elbow is going to have to work downward, opposite to the elevation of the ball. Mike says that "The perfect swing is the adjustment you make to the pitch you hit", meaning, I believe, that the "power V" of elbows, forearms, and hands are going to have to adjust to the location of the pitch. Bonds has his elbow up high with the pitch down, and lower with the pitch is up on the zone. This is a link to review: http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/images/askmike_5.pdf.

Note that the lead elbow is ALWAYS up, but it will be "somewhat" lower on a high pitch than a pitch down in the zone.

Two other links on similar issues:
http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/images/askmike_10.pdf
http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/images/askmike_11.pdf

Mike respects Jack's work here (he told me so himself), has a few differences, but the differences in my opinion, are on the margins.

Compliments and "thanks" for the work that both Jack and Mike E. are doing to help out young hitters (and their confused coaches!).

Scott B