Posted by: grc () on Thu May 2 17:29:40 2002

jack has made a distinction between "throwing the hands at the ball" and "throwing the bathead at the ball"....however, from what i remember he did not elaborate...i have my own ideas of why/how there is a significant distinction but i would appreciate your ideas....
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> > > Of course,a cue is just a cue and open to many interpretations,so any cue could work or not work.What should be accomplished,among other things is maintenance of the circular handpath to enable efficient "transfer mechanics." If the circular handpath straightens or extends,we know from the old steering wheel knob demonstration that transfer of energy from the body is shut down.That is a serious problem for any hitter.
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> > > The "throw the hands cue" seems to me to promote premature extension of the hands with loss of the circular handpath.The "throw the bathead" cue is less likely to do this.I don't like this cue much either.Throwing is a one sided thing.There is a similarity in that in both throwing and hitting you need to wait for torso turn to get the batgoing/arm laying back before the back arm("L" coming out of elbow)/throwing arm gets active.The feel of the bathead coming out is an important one,but way before I would get the feel of throwing,the bat starts pulling you as energy is transferred from the body.
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> > > The time in the swing where you can feel the top hand being active is at or just before launch with application of tht,but this doesn't feel like throwing to me.More like slinging or pulling or even pushing(if you reverse the top hand position as in the Lau "open top hand" drill or as Jack does in his golf club demonstration prefer to emphasize).Having a relaxed top hand grip and "getting the hands flat fast" can also work.Epstein has heard "scoop hand with the top hand."
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> > > I like the connected torso-arm feel,then pulling back with the bottom hand/lean back/head back with the inside stuff and good"extension"(not quitting or giving up on the swing) but with tight front upper arm connection/pressure for the outside.Shawn might say "dog hitting end of leash."
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> > > With respect to the circular handpath,sometimes "hit the inside of the ball" is useful even though this cue is very different from reality.It can help avoid the dead pull hook foul evn though you are still in reality hitting the outside of the ball.It works for some to keep the hand path from extending or not pulling in enough.As rql said,you have to know what detail you are working on and why.If the cue communicates this and you get good results,fine.Same with the dreaded fence drill-usually interpreted poorly with poor outcome for the hitter,but not always.
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> > > Don't start taking your cues concretely or reality will suffer.
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> > thanks hitman for the response..."I like the cue of punching the pitcher with my top hand, I think the cue really emphasizes getting your back shoulder through and also getting extension"....i think paul at setpro once likened the bottom hand part of the swing to a rabbit punch.....and "getting your back shoulder through" comes close to some ideas i had in mind (more on that at a later date).....
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> > and thank you tom for your response....as usual i will need some time to digest it all,but in the meantime i would like to make a comment/question on one of your statements, as well as to rephrase my original question with more specificity.......
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> > you said "The "throw the hands cue" seems to me to promote premature extension of the hands with loss of the circular handpath"...i agree, at least to the loss of the circular hand path......
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> > you also said "both throwing and hitting you need to wait for torso turn to get the batgoing/arm laying back before the back arm("L" coming out of elbow)/throwing arm gets active.".......(1) may i interpret this as another way of saying " don't throw until the elbow is in the slot/ready to come out of the slot"?.............. 2) "you need to wait for torso turn ".......this is an example of where i think cues and theory collide.....i used to scoff at jack for maintaining his "unison" theory but i have come to believe he may be right....the assumption with "you need to wait for torso turn " is that (A) i think this is a concept for which a hitter needs a meaningful cue, but yet there doesn't seem to be a meaningful cue that exists......when decision time comes,you don't think "hips first"....it's the bat that has to strike the ball & it's natural to think "swing the bat", not "turn hips before swing the bat"...........(B) there is an assumption that any kind of ideas/cues about hand/arm action will automatically "get the hands ahead of the hips"....if you recall at hitting.com i frequently and fervently made this same argument myself......but....from my own quite unscientific studies, getting the hands ahead of the hips (by thinking "throw hands" or "throw bathead" does not happen (although thinking "throw hands" does eem to result in loss of circular hand path").....almost no matter what you do, unless you "mentally" and deliberately try to restrict hip movement, if you have a circular hand path NOTHING will keep the hips from "keeping up" with the hands.... the hands are NOT going to simply jump ahead of everrything else....everything is in unison, no harm done & therefore i can see how that throwing the bathead could be a useful cue....maybe not useful in gaining more batspeed, but useful in getting a quicker "jump" on the ball, once decision to swing has been made......
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> > are you still awake?.......finally (at last), i said i would rephrase my original question with more specificity.......which is.....the role (if any) of the wrist in "throwing the bathead".....this might be tough to articulate so please bare with me......as a left handed hitter, if you stick out your top arm, bent at 90 degrees, palm facing up,you will notice that you can "cock" or turn your wrist to the left maybe 15 degrees or so (i'll call that -15 degrees)....notice that you can turn the wrist to the right (with palm still facing up) about 45 degrees or so (" +45 degrees")......now, i have noticed that a common chacteristic of "inside-out" hitters is that they will make contact with that wrist still in the "cocked" or -15 degree position....and the same hitters will draw in the hands closer to the body, excessively bend the front elbow, etc......but in my unscientific studies, it seems that if you consciously think "+45 degrees" with the wrist, it is a considerable mental assist in, as hitman said, "getting your back shoulder through", really whipping the bat around (again, always being careful to still contact with palm up).....in other words, if i think "45 degrees" (which seems the maximum lateral range without wrists starting to roll)it is virtually impossible for me to have anything but a circular hand path, and if i think "keep wrists cocked" it's virtually impossible for me to have a circular hand path..................
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> > well, tom, i have read (and enjoyed) so many of your essays, so, if you can make any sense whatsoever of my essay, please provide me with your analysis......
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> > respectfully, grc....
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> grc-the first few questions are somewhat a mixture of mechanics(what happens/needs to happen) and motor learning(how to learn the internal feel that corresponds to the desired external reality).Here's an initial stab at some answers.
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> "waiting for the torso"
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> The kinetic chain/summation of velocity requires a sequence of generating and transferring energy.This means you want to get the lower body energy into the torso before you then transfer the torso energy into the bat.This is a similar skill across hitting,overhand throw/pitching and windmill pitching.In almost every case,the back foot will drag with reactive torque as the hips decelerate to energize the torso as momentum is transferred and conserved.You don't want too much energy sucked out of the torso before this or power generation gets short circuited.You also want good transfer mechanics so the energy transferred is turned into batspeed/turning the bat,not pushing the bat with out turning it.
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> Now let's move into the real speculation.How does the torso store then release energy.I think the answer can be approached by looking once again at reactive torque(of course,I'm a reactive torque guy).I think what I see in hitting is that when the toe drags,some enrgy fairly steadily transfers to the bat as the bat head swings out via ball on string physics(if the handpath remains circular/connected) setting up "momentum runaway"/self-feeding extension.This can be seen on the inside bht pitch.More torso turn,steady buildup of batspeed,bat angle good for keeping ball fair,back toe drags all the way to contact,even through contact."L" stays in back arm through contact.
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> In the outside location we see the "L" come out of the elbow and a second wave of torque go down the backside.This rapidly depletes the torso of energy allowing no more ongoing contribution from the lower body.What "triggers" this? Most likely the "unloading" of the scapula initiating sequential extension of the back arm("L" coming out of back elbow).For this to work,it apparently is necessary for the front upper arm to remain tightly connected to the torso while some degree of flex comes out of the lead elbow giving slight(LATE) extension of the handpath.
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> So for the inside pitch,you need to be conscious of maintaining good connection including a circular or even hooking handpath.I think scap loading is important because you want to start each swing the same way and this can also give a short swing radius making you shorter to the ball.The scap loading is much more important on the outside pitch where you better keep loaded until the torso has had a chance to get energized(some toe drag has gotten underway).The slightest extension of the handpath will immediately deplete and stop the torso.This is ok just before/at contact on the outside location,but any other time this will cause the deceleration and hitting around the ball as bathead goes way ahead of hands(premature extension).
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> Clearly some separation/hips leading hands is necessary.Then you have to work with cues that promote the right sequence of rotation and handpath.
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> The wrist action should not interfere with body energy getting to the bat,then bringing the hands/arms along for the ride.I like the tight bottom hand grip with good front arm connection to torso and the relaxed top hand grip which can slide preventing "wrist bind".I don't like the grip in fingers or wrist snap ideas.The elbow in slot comes from good rotation and good linkage with the non-interfering grip so there is good rotation or as Jack describes it,a series of arcs.The back forearm is turning/rotating.There is no tendency to push the back elbow toward the belly button past the slot.The actions of the big muscles are running the show with the sense of feel residing in the hands.
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> see the Nomar clips at setpro public hitting thread # 000394.
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> Watch pitchers and you see the same reactive torque down the back leg.The pitcher(overhand)leads with the hips then starts the torso turning before foot plant.After the stride foot plants,then the hips can decelerate.Just after front foot plant you will see the back foot drag until the throwing arm has been fully laid back.Then as throwing arm catapults forward,second wave of torque goes down backside.The pitcher leans forward and unloads the scapula which sucks all the energy out of the torso and into the fully laid back arm which then shoots the ball forward to wrist snap.The second wave coincides with the throwing arm going from external to internal rotation,similar to "L" coming out of back elbow in hitting.

thanks tom, but if we could go back to what i was saying/asking about the role of the wrists....and by the way, i don't mean to any way whatsover give the impression that i somehow think there is "power" in the wrists or the wrist snap.....but allow me to summarize what you might call my hypothesis ( and in all cases, assume an inside pitch)........

if you swing with the idea that the wrist is still going to be in the cocked (-15 degree position), this will cause the lead elbow to bend, draw the hands in closer to the body , and for some reason, i do not know why, the hips do not fully rotate, and the result is an inside-out swing....

but think contact with the wrists moving laterally at their maximum without starting wrist roll, and it seems like this assists in bringing the bat head around with full hip rotation....if you ever have some spare time in the cage & could try simulating what i have said, i would be very interested in your evaluation....otherwise, though, i'll just let it go....

p.s.when ted williams said contact should be made with wrists "square and unbroken", would you guess that he was simply referring to palm up/palm down, or do you think that in addition he was suggesting taht at contact the wrists should still be in a cocked position?

respectfully, grc.....