Posted by: grc () on Tue Apr 23 19:11:50 2002

>>> jack...in my opinion, one of your biggest contributions to the study of hitting is the same contribution charley lau sr made years ago....both of you studied hitters & identified what many great hitters have in common....i personally think your identification of the circular hand path for hitting an inside pitch is a major contribution....
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> but i was wondering.....we all can see the hitter but we can't look into their minds.....and we don't always know what cues work for these hitters, even though in THEORY these cues might contradict your theories......
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> for example, take the cue of "throwing the bat at the ball"....barry bonds uses this cue & no one would accuse him of being a "linear" hitter....some rotational theorists might think that this cue would result in the hands going in a straight line, or the hands getting ahead of the hips...but yet, unless one TRIES to get the hands ahead of the hips, the hands will NOT get ahead of the hips and will NOT be "linear"......
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> so, my overall point is this: perhaps there are a number of useful cues out there that maybe in THEORY might not be useful but in the real world is useful to the INDIVIDUAL.....
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> respectfully, grc.... <<<
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> Hi grc
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> I could understand someone new to the site not knowing some of my positions and making the statement or “overall point” you have made, but I have trouble understanding how anyone who has come to the site for as long as you have would still misunderstand and misrepresent so many of my batting theories. Implying to the readers that I consider “throwing the bat” to be a linear concept is another example. If you had taken the time to go back into the archives, you would have found countless times where I have written posts advising batters to think of “throwing the bat-head” instead of “ throwing the hands (or knob)”. Those grc, (“throwing the bat-head” and “throwing the hands”) are two completely different concepts.
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> Throwing the “hands” is a linear concept where the lead-arm is flexed and then un-flexed to allow the hand-path to be extended straighter back toward the pitcher. To efficiently “throw the bat-head” requires a circular hand-path (inside or outside pitch). In order to generate a chp, the lead-arm should not breakdown but remain fairly straight across much of the chest as the body rotates. The more the lead-arm flexes and un-flexes during the swing, the straighter the hand-path.
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> If a coach says he thinks “throwing the hands” means keeping the hands back and allowing rotation to accelerate them into a chp, that’s fine. But every time I ask a coach to demonstrate “throwing the hands,” they exhibit a straight hand-path as I described.
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> Note:
> Below is an e-mail sent to me of a post grc made at Setpro.com. I want the readers at Setpro to know that it is full of misrepresentations of my work. --- PS: At Batspeed.com, all the positions I hold are printed right out front for ALL to read and challenge.
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> Jack Mankin
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> ss coach....you misunderstood me....i am not a "linearist" and i do indeed agree with many of jack's theories....but his theories do have flaws......some examples.....he refuses to acknowledge that many major leaguers achieve full extension on outside pitches, despite evidence to the contrary.....he does not believe in the "whip" theory...he does not believe in the "kinetic chain"....he thinks you should not hit the inside part of the ball on an outside pitch; he thinks you can hit the os pitch the same way as an inside pitch by simply having a wider swing radius (some would call this "casting"......he thinks major leaguers achieve almost full hip and shoulder rotation on outside pitches, despite evidence to the contrary..... whenever i discuss these matters with him, he responds with either asking me a question...then when i respond he ignores my response.....or...sometimes he will respond with a canned answer which doesn't address my points.... so, i'm not defending "linearists"...it's quite simple: rotation on is pitches, "linear" (his term, not mine) for outside pitches....

hi, jack...thanks for the response.....i stand corrected...without going to the archives, i think i do recollect you having made a distinction between "throwing the hands" and "throwing the bathead"...."throwing the bathead" does indeed require different mechanics than "throwing the hands" and i do apologize for the apparent and unintentional misrepresentation.....my overall point was not to rehash old issues but to simply suggest that in general there can be cues that while in theory (yours or mine)might not be good, in practice and for the individual might well be useful.....again, my apologies.....

as for my post at setpro, perhaps i have again misunderstood you in the past and issue by issue (each of which has generated much discussion over the years)perhaps you could correct the record...

(1)"he refuses to acknowledge that many major leaguers achieve full extension on outside pitches, despite evidence to the contrary".....if i must, i could go to the archives to cite your comments on this matter as well as the other issues discussed in my post......



(2)"he does not believe in the "whip" theory"....it is not well-documented that you disagree with the "whip theory" as well as the "kinetic chain" theory?....


(3)"whenever i discuss these matters with him, he responds with either asking me a question...then when i respond he ignores my response.....or...sometimes he will respond with a canned answer which doesn't address my points".............jack, there has been several times when this is exactly what happened in some of our exchanges and if it were that important i could go to the archives & provide examples.......



(4)i think it would be important to point out that i prefaced my remarks at setpro with "i do indeed agree with many of jack's theories....but his theories do have flaws"......is it not true that you and charley lau jr, or paul, or mike schmidt or mike epstein share many of the same theories, but that you believe each of them have at least one or more particular flaws?



jack, my post here as well as at setpro as well as any and all other posts i have made has not in any way whatsover been meant to denigrate you....i have meant absolutely no disrespect to you whatsoever and if i have misrepresented your views i truely do apologize........respectfully, grc.....
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