Posted by: Thorpe Facer (tfacer@yahoo.com) on Fri Apr 19 08:25:58 2002

>>My daughter has a powerful fastpitch swing. Her problem hitting is >>that she drops her back shoulder and therefore upper cuts. Any >>suggestions to break her of this?
> > >
> > >Dropping the back shoulder is necessary on the rotational swing except for the very high pitch.This is the way the body rotates.
> > >
> > > It's a miracle any fastpitch girl can hit if she follows the usual favorite fastpitch cues-"keep the weight back","keep the shoulders level" and "swing down".Trying to make the adjustment to rotational is quite challenging after the kid has been programmed with swing thoughts like these.As Epstein points out,if you start with weight back and keep the shoulders level,the weight has to go forward with the swing.Kids tend to try to make everybody happy by leaving the weight back(never getting off the back side)and swinging up.This is an uppercut arm swing which is then blamed on letting the back shoulder drop.I don't like arm swings and this is a bad arm swing.If your daughter has a powerful swing,then,bless her heart,she's trying to swing rotationally,she just doesn't know how.
> > >
> > > If she wants to make the transition to rotational,or improve her current attempt to be rotational(whether she and her coach are aware of this or not)then she needs to learn how to rotate around a stationary axis and keep a circular handpath.
> > >
> > > The best way to correct her keeping too much weight back/uppercut/collapsing back side/swaying/lunging/not really rotating may be to get Epstein's video and follow his lower body drills.See his support forum as well.Then she can learn to rotate,to get off the back side,but not lunge while STILL letting the back shoulder drop.Jack's bag drills and info are also good and let you work on the swing from the end back with good feedback that allows you to create new/better muscle memory.Learning to rotate is easier on the inside/low stuff because the torso rotates more,so emphasize that location.The high and away stuff may tempt her to go linear unless she gets things ingrained well.It won't be easy.
> >
> > =================================================================
> >
> > Some who have read my other posts will know that I'm a "linear" hitting coach, and am working with my kids toward using "rotational" mechanics. With due deference to Tom's comments, I have a different take on this issue.
> >
> > Linear Hitting Method:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > From a "linear" perspective, dropping the shoulder at the beginning of the swing is likely caused by the initial bat position. What Jack M. describes about "rotational" hitting, i.e. that most of what can be done to effect a swing occurs before (or at) "launch", applies to linear hitting also. If the hands are two low, the elbow too high, if the knuckles are misaligned, the hitter will be FORCED to drop the shoulder to develop any bat speed at all. When I first start instructing a new player (i.e. every team, in every spring in "rec" leagues) about 80% will say "I can't hit like that". That is, they try to emulate what we teach, but when you take away the "crutches" caused by poor form before launch, OF COURSE they can't generate power. Again, (and with deference to my "rotational" theory friends on this Web site) if their form is correct at start-up, it's going to damage the swing at launch, and a dropping shoulder is one such symptom. If you're hitting "linear", make sure their stance is correct (feet apart about shoulder width, toes in a bit, on the balls of their feet, bent, not "Locked" knees, balanced with their weight slightly towards the plate), their hands are correct (at, or a few inches above shoulder level (right thumb on a RH, when extended, should be able to just touch the seam of their jersy)), knuckles are lined up on "door knockers", bottom of elbows are at even height. Can't describe it all here, but Dusty Baker's book "You can teach hitting" is a great description of this method (including great pictures, and step-by-step drill instruction).
> >
> > Rotational Hitting Method:
> > --------------------------
> >
> > From a "rotational" perspective, I would maintain that a dropping shoulder is evidence of INCORRECT rotation. It's evidence that the player might be rotating vertically on a horizontal axis (centered on the players belt buckle or naval), rather than horizontally, on a vertical axis (centered on the spine). The player may be hitching his/her hands upwards in a "hitch" (rather than rotating downwards, in the circular motion Jack M. describes). A swing that causes the left shoulder to rise up (RH hitter) and the right shoulder to drop at launch is a swing rotating around a horizontal axis centered about at the belly button.
> >
> > I agree with Tom that the shoulder may drop a bit during the "inward turn", but it's really the hands that should be dropping (and extending backwards using the top hand), not the shoulder. I had a young man on my winter team last fall that was trying to emulate Gary Sheffield's swing. Sheffield (as I recall) starts with his hands fairly high, and drops them down into the proper slot during his inward turn. I wasn't observing for rotational mechanics then, and Sheffield may certainly be doing this, but Sheffield’s shoulder wasn't dropping. This boy was developing a huge amount of torque by hitching upward on his right side during launch, and rotating his bat in a looping circle (high on right, downwards, and back up high on his left). He excelled at thrusting his hips and arching his waist to develop bat speed. The only problem was, he couldn't hit a darn thing. That experience is one of many reasons I got interested in rotational batting theory. I think it works, but you have to rotate HORIZONTALLY around the VERTICAL axis of the spine.
> >
> > Mike Epstine has a "before/after" video that is great (http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/images/peter_straka.wmv)
> > It illustrates a decent "linear" swing (except the boy's stride foot is locked open, pointing to the pitcher, which causes him to swing across his body towards 3b, which is probably why he couldn't develop power with that swing), and the 2-week later change to a rotational swing. If you observe the "after" swings, he does drop his shoulder a bit at the start of the swing (top hand movement, torquing the bat towards the catcher), but at launch, he's leveled out again. Moreover, if you observe closely, on his BEST swings, his shoulder doesn't drop at all. I would maintain that the continual inertia and torque advocated by "rotational" theory proponents is best supported when ALL the shoulder rotation is horizontal (i.e. around the vertical axis of the spine). The hands should torque downward in a circular, motion but if the right shoulder follows, the body will get less horizontal, rotational torque through the shoulders.
> >
> > Solutions:
> > ----------
> >
> > How do we fix the problem? With rotational hitting, it's probably la less significant problem, since the shoulders will have to level out when they start rotating horizontally. I'd work on drills to get the player to use his top hand to move the bat into position during his inward run, while keeping his shoulders level during the inward turn.
> >
> > Using linear hitting techniques, I'd have the player recheck his form at set up before every swing of the bat. After the inward turn, the first movement would be the hands moving forward (not the shoulder dropping). There are quite a few other drills you can do, but since this site is about rotational hitting, if you want to improve with the linear hitting method, read Dusty Baker's book.
> >
> > My two cents:
> > -------------
> >
> > I'm leaning towards the opinion that rotational hitting theory is the best way to swing a bat, but I'm not yet ready to toss the "baby out with the bath water". Lots of good hitters hit linear, and good coaches teach this form of hitting at levels up through the professional Major Leagues. I certainly think some adjustments need to be made to improve the torque generated by the hips, as "linear" hitting is taught. As I get an experience baseline with players, my opinion may change, but I think certain hitters (perhaps the 1,2 hitters) may hit more consistently with less power (ground balls) using linear hitting techniques, while power hitters need to use rotational techniques.
> >
> > I may be wrong, but I'll keep studying the "art" until I get closer to where "right" is. Darn, if the goal posts don't keep moving farther away, though!
>
> Scott,
> I gotta disagree about Brandon's swing after the working with Mike. Every time I slo-mo, I see rear shoulder droppage. There will, of course, not be much, if any on a higher pitch, so maybe you were observing that. The tee was set fairly high, for example.
> And of course, WHEN the shoulder drops is a real key. It drops when the front heel drop "pulls" it down with the imaginary cable attached betwen heel and shoulder. And, of course, the chin can't be sloppily moving down with the shoulder or you have the rotational version of lunging.
> I urge you to check some clips at setpro- you'll see some major droppage from the great ones. There is a Piazza swing where it does get a little sloppy, but it sure illustrates the concept. (The sloppier swing is from Dodger days and he also uses a big stride. The Met clip underneath it is tidier, with less stride) There is a clip of DiMaggio (search "Joe D and Nomar" ) swinging pretty level (belt high pitch), but the front elbow does work up some. And the shoulder drops and the elbow tucks right when they should. Later...


This is probably a semantics issue. I agree that you rotate horizontally around the vertical axis of the spine. However, the spine is rarely vertical in the sense of straight up and down in relation to the ground. The body is bent at the waist so rotating vertically around the spine will always cause the back shoulder to dip unless you are swinging at a high pitch. On low pitches you get more body lean and therefore more of a dipping back shoulder. I don't see any good hitters whose shoulders are level to the ground at contact unless they are swinging at a high pitch. However, all good hitters have shoulders that are "level" to the axis of their spine at contact which is why I started off by saying that perhaps this is a semantics issue.