Posted by: r siefferman (rsieffusn@hotmail.com) on Tue Mar 5 19:22:53 2002

What do you believe to be the key to teaching the youngest players the fundamentals of good hitting?




I am not sure the swings are exactly the same. One of Mike Epstein's absolutes are that the plane of the swing matches the plane of the pitch. Since baseball pitches begin over the pitcher's head, while softball pitches come in from around knee level, one would conclude that baseball pitches come in with more downward movement. Therefore, I beleive the softball swing should be more level (to the ground)than a baseball swing, where a slight uppercut is preferrable.
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> > > > > > > > > > I am hearing of more and more fastpitch players being taught to swing down into the ball ... Does anyone here see the need to hit fistpitch softball any different than baseball.
> > > > > > > > > > > Jack, wouldnt the swings still be the same?
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> > > > > > > > > BsH-
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> > > > > > > > > One of the best answers ever to this question is from early '99 on Paul Nyman's website,and is still on the money.
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> > > > > > > > > www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000025.html
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> > > > > > > > > The best power swing is as Jack describes here.The trajectories of pitches are often flatter in softball,but most are still dropping.Reaction time is about the same as for baseball.The ball is bigger and heavier.Groundballs are worth more in softball.
> > > > > > > > > As Paul mentions due to lack of strength and lack of expeience most girls end up getting taught to compensate(usually the coach doesn't realize what they are teaching) for this with suboptimal mechanics.The usual idea is that using a downward arm swing will make better contact and produce grounders/low hits that will generate offense given the short basepaths.I don't believe the offensive stats bear this out,and I believe girls can be taught the power swing described here with better results.
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> > > > > > > > > Theoretically and practically,the swing described by Jack is quicker to the ball,more powerful,on the plane of the pitch longer and with less timing error.You can use a heavier bat without sacrificing much,if any batspeed.A heavier bat plus the fact that you are swinging on a matching plane imparts more energy to the ball at collision.Even if you use more of an upright axis,there should be some lift to the swing plane which gives excellent power that is just as effective if not more so than ground balls.
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> > > > > > > > > Most girls start to swing with their arms before the stride foot is down causing prmature extension of the hand path/lunging and the lineear mechanics Jack mentions.Making the transition to a rotational swing powered by torso turn and good transfer mechanics will require learning a new grip,keeping the hands back during the stride,then rotating around a stationary axis and keeping the hands in a circular path driven by torso turn,not the arms;and applying torque from initiation to contact.
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> > > > > > > > > A good way to start is to focus on crowding the plate and learning "bottom hand torque" for turning on the middle-in pitch.Pitchers are not used to getting beaten on the inside stuff.
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> > > > > > > > Hitting is fast pitch is based on the idea of a "rise" ball- a ball that curves up. This is in possible as proved in many studies and test. It can't happen in base ball either.
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> > > > > > > > But softball people insist that the ball rises therefore they must swing down. I assure you, you will not change their mind no matter the evidence. I have tried. As a result they teach what they teach.
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> > > > > > > > The truly amazing thing is that with such poor performance, a team batting average under 200 is not unusual, parents, coaches, kids and paid instructors keep teaching the hitters these unsuccessful mechanics.
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> > > > > > > > Go figure.
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> > > > > > > > Louy R. I I agree with those who advocate rotationalmechanics for the softball swing and it certainly appears that the riser does rise but its like a splitter in the dirt in hardball in that you only swing at it if you have been fooledby the pitch. it almost always ends up too high and out of the strike zone so the better players stay off it thepitcher generally has to then bring it down into the zone and out she goes.
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> > > > > > The scientific evidence shows that a baseball cannot curve up. A hard ball thrown at 100 mph at 55 feet drops 2.61 inches. This is due to gravity and wind resistance. Also, a base ball is thrown over hand which gives it the maximum backward spin that would be required to make a ball rise. This cannot be done with a underhand throw.
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> > > > > > You can't compare a ball droping with a ball rising. Droping is the natural thing for a ball to do. Why does a rise ball have to be high? why can they throw it low and have it break up into the strike zone. No one could hit it.
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> > > > > > In the book "Keep Your Eye On The Ball" give a good explination and the math on the "rise ball." But beleiving there is a rise ball when there can't be a rise ball is a good example of why hitting in softball is in a dismal state and won't get any better.
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> > > > > Sorry there is an error in my pervious post. A baseball thrown 100 mph over 55 ft will drop 2.61 feet, not inches.
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> > > > > Louy R. I maintain that my post written above is true.here is the reason why.When a softball pitcher releases the ball from just above the knee it does not curve up ,it moves up in a steady trajectory until it crosses the plate.it is a fastball not a curve.when a baseball pitcher releases a breaking ball it does not break down until itgets close to the batter.the rise ball is moving steadily from the time it leaves the pitchers hand.when the softball batter reads the rise it appears that its trajectory will put it letter high and they initiate the swing.the force behind the ball keeps it moving upward untill after it reaches the plate.the batter thinks that the ball has leveled off but that is a mistake.that is why it is good to stay off the riser and explains a little of why softball hitting is in a dismal state.the analogy i made with the splltter is appropriate because the baseball batter reads fastball but the pitch breaks down as it gets to the plate.the player should stay off the splitter.in softball the pitchers are taught to keep the ball down and good ones rarely throw it down the middle.the hitters are taught to stay away from the high pitch and the good ones recognize that the ball that appears that it will cross at the letters will cross at the neck,the umpires rarely call high strikes.by making use of jack's mechanics thestate of softball does not have to remain dismal.my students are proof of this.i think that the problem with understanding the rise lies in the terminolgy.just as a baseball drops 10-11 degrees because of gravity the softball can steadily move upward depending on how it is released.take a ball and release from just above your knee and tell meyou cant make it move upwards for a period of time before it starts to drop and then tell me that the riser doesnt exist.i say all of this with a love of both softand hardball and not to offend.if anyone can explain to me why i am incorrect iwill be happy to acceptit and learn,
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> > Watts and Bahill,2nd edition, have published most extensively on pitch trajectory.The magnus force due to underspin and rate of spin is not enough to exceed the weight of the softball,so the trajectory can only fall less,not rise,as the ball heads to the plate.The ball can still be going up as it proceeds since it is thrown from low to high.In other words,the riseball goes up for a distance,but does not curve up as you could make a whiffle ball do,for example.I have corresponded with Bahill at U of Az. and he believes it is possible for the ball to stiil be going up/not yet leveled off for at a distance of up to 45 feet(for 65-70mph-max velocity for women) and still be a strike(height of front armpit,tall batter).In practice,it is very hard to throw a riseball for a strike that hasn't already leveled off and started down.You are also very unlikely to get the umpire to call a strike on the riser high in the zone.
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> > As was mentioned before,in college fastpitch,the pitchers have dominated.About 10 yrs ago,they went more and more to the riseball which was successful for a while and really encouraged the light aluminum bat/level shoulder armswing/linear mechanics.Pitchers then went to the drop ball which was the main pitch for a few years(PAC-8is what I see most),working up and down.Batters had to adjust and started rotating the body and bending at the waist and hitting the low ball,occasionally getting the lower body into the swing(low/middle-out location).The pitchers next adjusted with the off speed stuff,and now in the last year or two have had to learn to go inside/out and own the inside half of the plate to stay ahead of the hitters.There are almost no batters capable of keeping the hands in and turning on the inside pitch,yet.Pithchers now have the curve ball/screwball and screwdrop to go east west,torture hitters inside and keep it away from the lefty slappers.
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> > Hitters need to learn rotational mechanics and bottom hand torque to get better control of the inside half of the plate as a next step.The higher the riseball is the more it moves so it's still best to recognize and take it rather than look for it and try to hit it.
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> To Whom,
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> A softball fastpitch cannot be released "just above the knee." For most girls (and guys) if they let their arms hang down at their sides their finger tips will come to about mid-thigh or a shade below. Girls know this because this is the usuall guide line for the lenght of skirts in most schools. Griping the softball makes the length shorter and most girls have their arms bent during their motion so the pitch cannot be relaased any were near their knee. Most of them release the pitch from hip level to the waste.
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> I don't want to make a point of criticism but I think this demonstrates the nature of the problem with the teachings of softball techniques today. Releasing the ball below mid thigh is impossible unless the pitcher bends over in their motion, which none of them are taught to do and no good pitchers do. If they do bend over its early in their motion and are upright at release. Their arms are just not long enough to reach to their knee. Yet people will base a theory of pitching or hitting on this imaginary release point.
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> The rise ball is a pitch that is on an upward trajectory and drops from the pull of gravity. Its no more a "rise ball" then a fast ball thrown over hand to knee level is a sinker ball. Its just on a downward tregectory.
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> Since gravity is a consistant force ALL thrown balls start to drop from the path at relase the instant it leaves the pitcher's hand. And the speed has nothing to do with it. This is a fundemental unchangeable law of nature and no spin, trajectory or wishfull thinking can change it. THERE IS NO RISE BALL.
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> Louy R.