Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Wed Dec 19 06:38:28 2001

darts anyone?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > i call it "geometrized swing" and it's too long and i want to watch football (steeler's WILL rule, ruin, raze, and wreck the raven's) so i'll divide it in parts.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > geometrized swing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Part I: pitch-hit angles.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > if:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > -only plane geometry considered (not solid).
> > > > > > > > > > > > -overhead view of baseball diamond with home plate at bottom of view and pitching plate at top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -average size rh pitcher with 3/4 delivery.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -average size rh batter using 34 inch bat.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -sweet spot of bat is 6 inches in from end of barrel and grip shall be established as the point located between hands, 4 inches from end of knob.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -pitched fastball with no movement.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -coordinates of pitcher's release point is 5 feet closer toward home plate from home plate side of pitching plate and 2 feet left of center from a line drawn from center-line of pitching plate to center-line of home plate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -an extreme outside pitch will be considered a pitch that intersects the center point of the ball with the point formed by the front and outside edges of home plate. inside pitch directly opposite.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > then(using sine tables and the knowledge that the home plate edge of the pitching rubber is 60 feet 6 inches to the apex occurring at the rear of home plate and that the plate is 17 inches wide and 17 inches deep):
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > -a pitch pitched to the center of home plate creates an angle of approximately 88 degrees formed between the path of the pitch and the front edge of home plate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -a pitch to the extreme outside corner forms an angle of 87 degrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > > -a pitch to the inside corner forms an angle of 89 degrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > maximum impact between ball and bat occurs when sweet spot of bat impacts sweet spot of ball (a bat impacting ball perpendicular to the path of the ball. for now, only considering a flat plane and not dimensional. elevations not considered).
> > > > > > > > > > > > a hit, using this maxim, would have the bat strike the ball in such a way as to send it directly opposite from whence it came.
> > > > > > > > > > > > therefore, a pitch to the center of the plate, would require a bat positioned (at contact) to form an angle of 2 degrees with the front edge of the plate. this would send the ball 2 degrees to the left field side of straight-away center field.
> > > > > > > > > > > > a pitch to the outside corner would be hit 3 degrees to the left field side of center field, and an inside pitch only 1 degree to the left field side.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > amazing. THIS WOULD SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT WE PULL (albeit, ever so slightly) AN OUTSIDE PITCH MORE THAN AN INSIDE PITCH.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > AND:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > a CURVEBALL on the outside corner would create an angle of even less degree.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > dart's please!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > next up. Part II: hand position.
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> > > > > > > > > > > > ray porco
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, in a way you are right, because when you say " WE PULL (albeit, ever so slightly) AN OUTSIDE PITCH MORE THAN AN INSIDE PITCH ", that is exactly what frequently happens when you contact the ball (outside pitch)the same distance in front of home plate as you would an inside pitch. And this type of contact frequently results in a weak grounder to the pull side.
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> > > > > > > > > > > Using the front edge of home plate as a reference point, let's say a hitter contacts an inside pitch 18 inches in front of home plate. That same hitter should then contact a middle pitch closer in, for example 9 inches in front of home plate. And the outside pitch will be contacted perhaps even with front edge of home plate.
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> > > > > > > > > > Saat,
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> > > > > > > > > > Don't forget, as Jack recently pointed out, one of the strengths of rotational hitting as opposed to linear hitting is that there is relatively less difference between where you have to contact an inside pitch and an outside pitch.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mark H.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mark, you have it backwards. One of the WEAKNESSES of "rotational hitting" an outside pitch is YOU CAN NOT FULLY ROTATE!!! It's a physiological concept ----- On an outside pitch you have to REACH to get to the ball. If you don't "reach" you rotate the sweet part of the bat AWAY from the ball. If you "reach" with body lean you inhibit hip rotation. If you "reach" by fully extending the top arm, you again inhibit hip rotation. I'm with you all the way with rotational hitting when it comes to hitting an inside pitch, but you need to overcome this notion that what works for an "easy-to-reach" inside pitch will also work for a "harder-to-reach" outside pitch.
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> > > > > > > > As Jack has asked, when, or at what angle, does the bat have the most plate coverage? My question to you is, do you understand Jack's comments about the arcing handpath, or tightening of the arc, to adjust to the inside location?
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> > > > > > > > Mark H.
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> > > > > > > Also, do you understand Jack's concept of tht and what it does to the handpath in terms of adjusting to pitch location?
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> > > > > > > If you understand these things and disagree with them, that is one conversation. If you don't understand or are unfamiliar with them, then that is another conversation. And if you don't understand them, beware, Tom G. may unleash another one of his novels on you.;) God bless him, if it weren't for his novels, I would never have found this place and would still be muddling along somewhere between linear and rotational without knowing the difference.
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> > > > > > > Mark H.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Saat,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's a clip that I'm sure I got from Tom that has a side by side of Aaron. The left clip shows him hitting a pitch that looks to be well inside of the black. The clip on the right shows him hitting a ball over the middle of the plate. What would you say about the contact point as far as how far in front of the plate contact was made? And is the handpath circular or linear in your opinion?
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> > > > > > http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/development/coiling/coilingframe2.htm
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> > > > > > Here is another clip I got from Tom of Piazza. I see a heel drop triggering hip rotation with a nice separation before torque generated shoulder rotation connected to the bat with the tight linkage of the front arm followed by a further tightening of the arc, or arcing handpath as I think Jack says, (iow, less linear) to adjust to the inside pitch location. What do you see?
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> > > > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000507.html
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> > > > > > Mark H.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry for the run on posting. One more question. Which direction does the bathead move initially?
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> > > > > Mark H.
> > > >
> > > > Saat -
> > > > Welcome. I can't believe how busy the discussion has been over the weekend. Maybe the busiest I've ever seen. And with some real content too. Ray, nice to hear from you again also.
> > > > I've just tried to digest all the discussions at once this morning. IMO the disagreement is more of a disconnect. Let me explain -
> > > > Saat is right in that if you rotate fully (complete hip and shoulder turn) you will eventually start to pull off the outside pitch. However Jack and company have never stated that you hit an outside pitch with full hip and shoulder rotation.
> > > > The concept as I understand it is that hip and shoulder rotation is cut off earlier for an outside pitch to avoid turning past the ball and pulling off. Additionally, rotational hitting does not hold as its ideal, a complete pivoting spin of the body around 180 degrees or 360 degrees. Fact is the shoulders turn somewhere in the 90 degree neighborhood ( I don't want to quibble about a few degrees of counter rotation, etc.)
> > > > This approx. 90 degrees (or more or less)of shoulder turn is created by hip rotation/torso transfer to shoulder rotation. At or near contact, the bat should be released from the shoulder rotation circular path.
> > > > If you are totally rotational and the bat remains parallel to the shoulders (turns with the shoulder turn only, no release) then the shoulders would have to turn a minimum of 45 degrees from perpedicular to the pitcher to hit to the opposite field line; and 135 degrees to pull one directly down the line.
> > > > While this is a wide range of shoulder rotation, consider that the work/energy supplied by the quads, hamstrings, glutes, abs, obliques (core) happens one step earlier in the kinetic chain than the shoulder rotation. Transfer of lower body energy to shoulder rotation should happen at maximum hip rotation SPEED, not at the end of the hip rotation path and this is somewhere in the middle of the hip turn. If the hips turn from sideways to forward that is 90 degrees. Max hip rotation speed would be somewhere in the middle - maybe 45 degrees of turn or later and before 90 degrees.
> > > > The point is that the hip turn has supplied plenty of power in the first 45 degrees of its turn to power the shoulders well even at a 45 degree shoulder turn - the absolute miniumum point where releasing the bat will hit the ball fair to the opposite field.
> > > > The disconnect in the weekend argument IMO is that Saat thinks the hands/shoulders must start the swing for the outside pitch because the hips can't supply power that early in the swing.
> > > > While Jack may not have talked about it in the terms I've used here, he means the same thing - there is enough power in the partial hip turn (and add in some extra top hand torque) to release the bat from the shoulder turn early in the swing and drive the outside pitch to the opposite field gap with power and without pulling off the ball.
> > > > Saat does not think that this power exists and so must be supplied by hands and arms only. Saat - correct me if I misunderstand you here, I don't mean to twist your words.
> > > > I think many of us have seen clips of Manny Ramirez crushing outside pitches to right center using this technique so we've seen it in action. Its not just theory.
> > > > Saat, your thoughts on this?
> > >
> > > major dan,
> > >
> > > hi, and thanks for the greeting. question please. are you saying that if the bat is parallel with the shoulders and you have a 45 degree shoulder turn - that this is the absolute minimum point where the bat will hit the ball fair to the opposite field? do you mean the bat at a 45 degree angle?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > ray porco
> > Ray-
> > I didn't intend this to be totally accurate to a real swing. What I meant is: if there is no bat release and the bat and shoulder line are parallel the following is true:
> > The shoulders turn from in-line with home-to-secondbase to in-line with first-to-thirdbase. This is a 90 degree turn. If the turn is only 45 Degrees (righty batter) contact would send the ball down the firstbase line. at 90 degrees, contact toward center field. at 135 degrees, contact down thirdbase line.
> > this would be true if the bat were welded or duct taped to the hitters body and the hitter simply turned into the pitch.
> > My suggestion is that the hips/core have created and thus can transfer all or most of their energy somewhere between 45 degrees and maybe 75 degrees. If the hips haven't reached max velocity by 90 degrees, you won't have a very fast bat anyway. So if you transfer from hips to shoulder rotation by 60 degrees and cast the swing to an outside pitch, you can pretty much fully power that ball to right or right center. Less powerful compromises aren't needed.
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> major dan,
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> please, am not meaning to be smart, but your conclusion is built on a false premise. again, i'm not being smart, but bat angle is very crucial to a discussion of the geometry of the swing, and i think you (and more than likely, many other's) assume that a bat held 45 degrees to a pitch will hit the ball down the right field line. this is just not true, and very likely psychologically damaging to the perception of hitting to the opposite field.
>
> maybe i misunderstand you. let me ask. do you mean:
> a bat parallel with the shoulders and the shoulders in-line with home-to-shortstop 45 degrees).
>
> if this is what you mean, then a ball pitched at a 90 degree angle to the front edge of home plate striking a bat that forms a 45 degree (minus 45, if you will) angle with the front edge of home plate will be foul by 45 degrees.
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> the bat angle (in this case), to hit a ball directly down the right field line, would have to be 22.5 degrees. this is 50% less than what you think.
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> again sorry, but a lot of people think this way, and mistakenly feel they just can't have any power going down the line - so why try.
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> i agree it's less than hitting a ball with the bat held at 90 degrees, but less than you think.
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> now, how does this affect your hip angles?
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> i got more to say about this later.
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> ray porco
>
Ray -
Your orientation for the degrees and mine are different. But I'll use yours for now.
Just because the bat is at a 45 degree angle to the incoming ball does not mean that the ball will angle off at another 45 degrees.
"Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection" is the physics of light. It also works for billiards, more or less. But billiard balls are of equal mass.
The bat's force is much greater than the pitched ball so the angle of reflection is not equal to the angle of incidence.
Imagine a Mack truck hitting a Geo Prism at an angle. The Prism will go flying, the truck will continue through it with minimal deflection.
In reality, spin has a greater affect on the direction of the ball than angle of pitch to bat.
Check your reality- the ball pretty much goes in a direction perpendicular to the bat. There may be some angle, but not enough to make a difference, except in the spin imparted to the ball.
If you hit a much heavier ball with a much lighter bat, the effect you describe would be seen (6 lb medicine ball with 18 oz bat for instance)