Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Tue Feb 27 18:22:08 2007

>>> Thanks for sticking with this.

Jack asked: Can you point out where, and what, Peavy may be referring to? It appears to me that his hands and his bat-head stay in circular paths even during PLT before shoulder rotation was initiated.?

There are five visual frames with the motionanalysis next to them at:

http://peavynet.com/news/handpaths.htm

frame one is start of pre-launch tht as back elbow is just starting down

frame 2 is tht at launch as front foot is now down and shoulders have started ti tilt/turn

frame 3 is about lag position. Up to this point, Peavy describes the swing as linear or as the flat part of a virtual pursuit curve. When you look at the bracketed handpath up to this point it does not look very curvy.

I would say what is happening during this time is importantly happening in 3D as the hands are torquing the handle while the body is still loading in the sense of the shoulders somehow resisting the opening of the hips so that even though shoulders and hips are both moving.the torso muscles are still stretching/coiling. Peavy sems to think of it as a passive top hand with an active pull by the lead arm - not really too different from oar locking.

frames 4 and 5 are bathead firing to contact which Peavy calls the rotational part of the swing driven by hip turn. Handpath can be seen to be circular on the motionanalysis. He calls this the "flathands part of the handpath.

Jack said: "I must disagree for the baseball/softball swings. Once again, referring to the Bonds clip, I would say his shoulders are rotating around a preset tilted axis after PLT and continuing through THT. I see no evidence that his “actively” rotating his shoulders produced “rushing” or a slower unwinding of the torso. – Would you say we see the role of the shoulders differently in the swing or just describing it differently."





I think the shoulders need to be used to work with the hip turn to give a last quick coil to the torso while the bat is already turning between the hands. The shoulders do this by a tilt that resists opening with the hips.There is no feel of actively turning the shoulders which is why the feel is traditionally describes as hips and hands. Not "hips then shoulders" or "active shoulder turn", but hips and hands.Body at 85%, hands at 100% as Wiliams said.

You can try the golf swing either way. Really produce a powerful shoulder turn that in turn throws the arms and club OR you can swing with the turn of the shoulders blended with the movements of the arms and torso. Hitting requires the blend of these parts.Richard describes it as "bypassing the shoulders". Same thing. The active shoulder feel usually means a sequence that is getting the swing too long and losing too much quickness and adjustability.

I suspect we are more describing a complex thing differently than describing a very different thing. The idea of a fixed axis is a useful concept, but in fact things are much more dynamic, moving together/overlapping,etc.

Instruction wise, I rarely find it useful to encourage turning the shoulders hard as this will tned to make you fly open and pull off the ball.I think it is important to tilt the lead shoulder down and in with the inward turn and keep it there until the front foot is down at which point the shoulders can actively untilt.

I think these cue/descriptions are similar to your turning everything at once and shrug/unshrug type actions.<<<

Hi Tom

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You state, “Peavy sems to think of it as a passive top hand with an active pull by the lead arm - not really too different from oar locking.”
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I would certainly agree with Peavy regarding the importance of the pull of the lead-arm in applying THT during initiation. Note in the first 3 frames, the batter’s lead-arm remained at a fix angle across his chest. Therefore, the pull on the knob end of the bat from the bottom-hand did not come from the muscles of the arm. The pull was supplied from the rotation of the lead-shoulder around toward third base with the lead-arm serving as linkage. -- Here is where you I may disagree on the importance of shoulder rotation relative to arm action as THT is being applied.

The area I where I would disagree with Peavy is where he believes torque is being applied with a passive top-hand. I would say that having a passive top-head is very different “from oar locking.” As Peavy’s own drawings of “bat, leverage –resistance” show, to overcome the inertia of the bat requires both hands applying force from opposing directions.

Let us relate this to the “oarlock” issue. – Supposed you lifted the pin out of the lock and held it in your right hand (top-hand). Note that when you pull on the oar with you left hand (bottom hand), it requires a great deal of force from the right hand to keep the pin in place. If your right hand becomes passive, pulling with the left hand does not pull the paddle through the water – no torque being applied.

Therefore to accelerate the bat-head rearward (THT) during initiation, the top-hand must apply a “rearward” pull as the bottom hand is being pulled “forward.” – In fact, during PLT (before shoulder rotation is initiated), the pulling back of the top-hand is primarily what sweeps the bat-head rearward behind the head from its cocked forward position.

Jack Mankin