Posted by: Giant Fan () on Mon Oct 22 09:02:46 2001

On page 29 of Dusty's "You Can Teach Hitting" he says: "Throw the head of the bat at the ball. To do this, the hitter accelerates his wrists, forearms, hands, and fingers and throws the bat through the strike zone. He should think of this as though he were cracking a whip".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that after having read Jack's materials (debunking the crack-the-whip theory, etc) there seems to be a conflict between what Jack teaches and what Dusty teaches.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > My question is this: Is it possible to subscribe to 80 percent of Jack's teachings but give Baker the benefit of the doubt on this particular issue, or should I totally dismiss the teachings of one of these individuals?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Giant Fan
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the site. – I would suggest it would be better to follow the teachings of one or the other. Combining the two methods can lead to real problems. If the mechanics you choose separate the lead arm from the body, do not attempt to apply early torque (tht) to the bat. Serious wrist binds can develop and place a lot of stress on the joints and spinal column.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Below is an exchange of posts between Major Dan and I regarding the use of the hands and arms in the swing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ##
> > > > > > > > > > “Using the arms correctly is essential if a batter is to become a better hitter and rise above the average hitters. A batter will never develop sufficient arm strength that can generate the bat speed necessary to become a great hitter without properly using the rest of his body. The more the batter attempts to use the arms to accelerate the hands, the more he separates the arms from the power of the rotating body and shoulders.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In the swing of the best hitters, the arms are not used as much to generate energy, they are used to transfer the energy from the larger muscle groups in the legs and torso to the bat. Great hitters do not separate the lead arm away from the rotating body by extending the top hand.. In fact, far from it, great hitters keep the hands and lead arm back (across the chest) and allow the powerful rotation of the shoulders to bring the hands to the contact point. --- The top hand is not driving the lead arm away from the chest (this is forward arm extension and linear mechanics). As shoulder rotation starts to accelerate the lead arm and hands around the arc – THE TOP HAND IS PULLING BACK TOWARD THE CATCHER. This “pulling back” not only applies tremendous torque to the bat, but it also keeps the lead arm extended across much of the rotating chest as the swing is initiated.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As the swing continues, the back elbow will lower to the batter’s side and top hand will stop pulling back toward the catcher, and back arm will rotate with the body in the classic “L” position. The lead shoulder continues its rotation, which pulls the lead arm around the arc and back toward the catcher as contact is made. It is the “pulling back” of the lead arm that causes the “fishhook” effect (reducing the arc radius of the hand-path) and adds bottom-hand-torque to the bat. --- These are the mechanics of the great hitter that result in a highly accelerated bat through contact.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I hope that all of you are understanding that this is the main difference between the materials offered on Batspeed.com and the materials taught by other coaches who teach linear or their version of rotational/linear batting mechanics. It is fine to own and read that material for a general understanding, but I submit to you that those are not the mechanics used by great, All-Star caliber hitters.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jack -
> > > > > > > > > > I was experimenting in the batting cage last week with many of the ideas I have come across on the internet. After a number of swings and misses (getting the rust off) I realized I was swinging my arms at the ball. Applying your lessons, I tried to get a full hip, then shoulder turn into my swing. Two things happened - first, (and I clearly remember this) I was fully facing the ball, body completely open, and the ball was still 5-10 feet in front of me (I had been late on previous pitches)(it felt like the pitch was a changeup); second, though I never consciously tried to swing the bat, the bat seemingly flew into the ball. I found myself crushing ball after ball with minimal effort.
> > > > > > > > > > I know this is just a cue, but for those who are or have used linear elements in their swings, trying to swing the bat results in using the arms to swing. This is the key 'wrong turn' in the swing.
> > > > > > > > > > If I just turned into the ball, keeping my hands with me, the bat hit the ball. I didn't feel as if I was swinging at it.
> > > > > > > > > > However it feels strange, almost surreal, to hit without trying to swing the bat.
> > > > > > > > > > From a kinesthetic perspective, it is a very significant difference in feeling. Mentally it is counter-intuitive. In action, it works really well.
> > > > > > > > > > Jack, do you know of other people who have had this experience? I am sure for me that I can feel the difference between rotational and linear and it is like night and day in action.
> > > > > > > > > > Working with my 10 year old last night, I kept telling him - "don't swing, just turn into the ball". Seems like a strange thing to say, but the results are correct. Strange....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok, Listen up,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > First of all, yes many, many, many people have this experience in a batting cage. Go to any batting cage and you will see kids hitting line drives. Also, listen to the kids parents saying "He hits the ball so well here but in a game he can't hit at all."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Do you wonder why the catcher hides the pitch signal from the hitter???? Its so the hitter dosen't know what and where the pitch will be. Why? Because if he knows he will be better able to hit it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Everybody hits in the batting cage. The ball comes at the same speed and in the same place. Stay there long enough and you will hit the ball with your eyes closed. For that reason the batting cage is poor training. You weren't getting the "getting the rust off," you were learning where the pitches were going to be.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The only way you can move your lead arm away from your body is to not trun your shoulders. And nobody teaches "don't trun your shoulders."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you trun your shoulders you wind up with your shoulders facing the field then your lead arm will be extended acrosss your body. You can't do it any other way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > PLUS, In this position your shoulders are facing the pitcher and your lead shoulder is further away from the plate then your back shoulder. Since both hands are on the bat next to eachother its impossible to straighten your back arm. It must stay in an L position. Don't take my word for it. Try it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is an example of disecting every little movement of the swing and applying some "rule" to it so that it "sounds" good. Its just double talk for "experts."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joe A.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Joe, I apologize but all the technical talk has got me lost. I guess what I'm asking is how much in the mainstream is Dusty's advice? Without all of the theories, have you ever heard this advice given before? Are there errors in his advice?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Giantsfan-
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know it's really appealing to just have the simple answer,but the reality is there isn't one.What makes things complicated is that there really are an infinite number of ways you could execute Dusty's advice.To Dusty's credit,none of the descriptive "cues" in your quote will absolutely prevent you from learning good mechanics.However,there is a lot left out that you may not get right.Dusty could watch you and he knows enough that you would probably find a mechanically sound swing if you worked with him.But even in Dusty's case,at least from reading his book, he doesn't have an adequate mechanical model in mind of how the whole swing is produced,so if he is asked details about the role of some body parts,he will give confusing answers.Once you have the basic swing model in mind as presented by Jack here,Dusty's stuff makes a lot of sense.I especially like hi "maintaining the box" description.If you are a coach and you think just putting together a list of the best swing keys will give the best results.then you will do a lot of kids a disservice because you lack enough understanding of how it all needs to fit together.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you interpret Dusty's "cues" in a way that is compatible with Jack's more realistic description,you will do fine.And Jack just laid it all out right there for you with detail on the site to back it up.You(as a coach/teacher---hitters don't have to think as much) really need to understand the realistic description,so keep asking questions if you don't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you. You said "there really are an infinite number of ways you could execute Dusty's advice" and although you didn't exactly say so, I infer that you believe this could be done in a manner that is still compatible with Jack's theories. Could you please explain one or two of these ways this could be done (executing Dusty's principles) and still be compatible with Jack's theories? Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dusty's description omits anything that necessarily encourages/overemphasizes extension of the arms,which is one of the major points Jack made above.If you prematurely extend the arms allowing the hands to get away from the body's center of rotation(if you don't keep the hands in) you will kill the swing.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can do just what Dusty says and it can work IF you have a circular hand path,turn the body around a stationary axis and torque the bat between the hands throughout the swing.If you do this,the energized torso will rapidly "accelerate the forearms hands and fingers" that are tightly connected to it.As the bathead is fired out of the arc of the circular handpath the body's momentum will transfer into batspeed and pull your hands along with the launched bat which may feel to you like cracking a whip or firing a projectile or achieving escape velocity or whatever you want to call it.However,this should not be confused with the reality of the physical principles of whipping.Throwing a ball is much more like whipping where you turn the body(lead with hips/torque separated upper and lower body to start momentum transfer)but then you bend at the waist and whip momentum through the arm with sequential extension-in other words you want to extend the arms before you snap the wrists.
> > > > >
> > > > > In hitting you stay more upright and "maintain your spine angle" or body posture as you rotate.Torquing the body is similar in the early part of hitting and throwing,but getting energy to the bat requires using the arms to connect the hands to the torso and drive hand torque to fire the bat.The arms must not extend before the bathead fires.The wrists torque(not snap)BEFORE the arms extend.This part of the swing which Jack describes as "transfer mechanics"--this both arm/hand action-- is an entirely different sequence and action as compared to a single arm throwing action and has nothing to do with the principle of whipping.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Major Dan,
> > > > I couldnt describe the feeling of hitting the ball w/ rotational mechanics as opposed to linier mechanics better than you have. I tried the same thing as you. Having always hit w/ linier mechanics I always felt a strain on my wrists after the bat went through the zone. After experimenting with rotational I nolonger felt any strain and my swing was effortless. Without sounding like a shill for Jack, Rotational mechanics improved my swing.
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Here's a question for the 'total whip' affect, Dusty's statement.
> > >
> > > When does the lead arm lose it's mechanical advantage?
> > >
> > > Does it have a mechanical advantage in the swing if you swing down, or extend the hands in a whip-like fashion?
> > >
> > > Shawn
> > >I would say it has a mechanical advantage in those cases as to not using it at all so yes it has some advantage mechanically but not optimum.
>
> Shawn-
>
> One important factor is when the lead arm extends.Lead arm extension means the hands(and center of mass of hands/arms/bat)are getting away from the body"s center of rotation.This is a hard to control trigger of momentum transfer from the body.If the hands get away before lower body energy has been "whipped" rotationally up into the torso,there will be little energy to generate batspeed.If the lead arm extends before the hands have torqued the bat a considerable way to extension,then the energy transferred will go more to dragging the bat along its axis instead of turning it to create batspeed.Lead arm extension is suboptimal between "launch"(torso starting to turn forward)until just before the bat becomes fully extended.

This conversation is a bit too technical for me. That's ok, I'll still try to follow the best I can. From what I think I gather from this dialog, the concern with "throwing the bathead" seems to twofold: (1) Throwing the bat should not result in the hand path deviating from it's natural "circular hand path". And I agree.

(2) There seems to be a concern that thinking "throw the bat" that the hands will leap ahead of the hips, disrupting the "kinetic chain" of events. If this were the case, I too would be concerned. However, it's not exactly like you are going to throw the bathead while the lower body remains motionless. Once the stride has been completed and enertia has been overcome, whether you simply think "swing" (what else could you think)or you think "throw bat", hips, hands, everything is moving together more or less as a unit.

This seems to be nothing more than a harmless mental cue, not in creating more batspeed (but not less, either), but apparently to some hitters is useful in being "quicker". Maybe quicker in an illusionary sense, maybe quicker in the sence that it helps them overcome inertia quicker (i.e., get the bat started sooner & therefore be able to wait on the pitch just a bit longer).