Posted by: Hitmaster () on Wed Oct 10 20:47:01 2001

Hello
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> > > > > > You can call it whatever you wish, but the videotape proof is conclusive.
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> > > > > > Poor hitters advance their hands toward the ball with a shoving or throwing motion that disconnects the lead arm from the upper body.
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> > > > > > Good hitters accelrate the bat back toward the catcher, then the hands move into a circular orbit and the lead arm moves in sync with the upper body. The bat head then gains maximum speed from shoulder rotation.
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> > > > > > Personally, I cannot see how throwing the hands would be a useful thing to think about. But if someone can do that and the result is consistent with what good hitters do, it doesn't matter.
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> > > > > > It is unreasonable to think that someone could come to this board and say disconnecting the hand path from rotation is good technique and not expect to be corrected.
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> > > > > > Melvin
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> > > > > Hey, your not paying attention, yiu can sling something in a cirle path or you can sling it straigt.but it doesnt matter anyway.Havnt you heard of a hammer throw? I dont agree or disagree but at least adress the experiments the guy did
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> > > > Hello
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> > > > I don't think I'll be addressing any experiment because no experiment was performed. An experiment requires a lot of work. It requires a hypothesis, standards, control groups and calculation for dozens of variables. It then must be repeated by someone else if the hypothesis is proven. Let's not profane true standards of intellectual rigor by reading a few paragraphs about top-hand torque, going and swinging the bat, and calling that an experiment. It's not. It's called anecdotal evidence and is the most unreliable testimony there is as to an ideas reasonableness.
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> > > > I almost have to laugh at all the people who write in here and say they read the site, told Junior about it that night and the results are amazing! I play about 40 ballgames a year and hit two or three times a week and it was taken me months, months I say, to even become reasonably fluent with bottom-hand torque, let alone top. And that was after week upon week of just trying to figure out what it was.
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> > > > No, sir, I don't think there are any experiments being written about here and I certainly call anyone an intellectual lightweight who says they read it last night, tried it today and loved it/hated it.
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> > > > Melvin
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> > > Melvin, I don't come to this site much and I'm not very vocal, but Joe is right, you are not paying attention to what people say. Is it because your feelings are hurt that someone would dare suggest that just maybe Jack is not always 100 oper cent correct? RB said that with his experiment, which he acknowledged was not science, he VIDEOTAPED the hitters. He said that when they thought "throw" that their hand path remained circular. If you are too chicken to try your own experiments, fine, but why do you put down people who tried something and it worked for them? Like RB said, you rather stick your head in the sand . Closed minds is certainly not conducive to learning, but I guess you think you already know it all. But the troubledome thing is, because you think YOU know it all, it's ok to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you.
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> > > And like RB said, maybe this site is just for a handfull of people to discuss top hand torque and nothing else. You are incapable of a civil, point-by-point discussion so you resort to defensive attempts to discredit the poster. You (meaning your entire clan)don't give newcomers a chance to be converted, or buy Jack's tape because you scare them away.
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> > > And like RB said, I will let you have the last word. Go ahead and talk among yourselves, I will not respond, I too am otta here for good. a note to Jack: creating unpleasnat experiences for newcomers and DISCOURAGING an honest dialog is an unusual way to build up a business. I'm gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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> > Hello
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> > I clearly stated that it possible that throwing bats or hands or whatever could be as useful as anything else. Theoretically. I mean, it's not for me (as I said), but doesn't exclude the possibility of getting it right (as I also said, for the third time now).
> >
> > The only thing I wished to criticize is the often-heard assertion that the methods of great hitters as explained on this Web site are quickly or easily learned. A couple of ballfield drills, with the same players performing dissimiliar movements, that may be unfamiliar to begin with, with no information about the coaching they received, is unreliable.
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> > Pleae note: I didn't say that the circular hand path cannot be achieved by throwing the bat head or the hands. Perhaps it can be. That makes for the fourth time that I agree with the possbility.
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> > I remain unconvinced that any ballfield exercise proves it one way or the other, however.
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> > I question why such a questions matter, however. There is someone who has applied rigourous research standards to hitting documentation and it took years. That person is Jack Mankin. And he didn't film youth league amateurs. He filmed the best hitters in the world and they all do the same thing. Anyone with even limited baseball experience, a videotape player and enough curiosity could easily attempt to replicate Jack Mankin's findings.
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> > I am not aware of anyone who has, and for that reason it rings hollow to write in and say ``I disagree with Jack on this and that'' while offering no concrete evidence as to what he did wrong, while serving up some impromptu slinging drills with children as the basis for the argument.
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> > Now if someone should write in and say, ``Listen, I have filmed hitters for six months on TV, I have broken them down into these categories, I have plotted every movement they make and superimosed it on a computer model and Jack Mankin is wrong here, here and here,'' well that is a different story.
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> > The loyalty here isn't really even directed at Jack Mankin. He deserves credit for identifying things that were unseen before. He deserves a mountain of credit for his hard work. But the mechanics we talk about here aren't Jack Mankin's invention. Jack Mankin is just a reporter of what successful hitters do. If you think his reporting is wrong, well, the burden of proof is on you. Ballfield drills won't do it. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings, but this is a rigorous skill and a rigorous discussion.
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> > As for complaints about the board's subject matter, they should be taken seriously. However, as a voluntary, free and mostly uncensored meeting place, it would seem incumbent upon the participants to shape it in the direction they desire.
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> > Melvin
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> Seems like RB and some of the others are having two different arguments and trying to do it together. I think the answer is that RB means something different by throwing the hands than most of us mean by throwing the hands. Personally, I would say "letting the shoulders sling the hands" but it is really just a matter of definitions and cues. Perhaps we should remember that newcomers may not understand all the lingo right away and take the time to determine what they are really trying to say?
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> Mark H.

Mark, I don't know what RB means by throwing hands, but I think in terms of throwing the bathead. I think that if you think "throw hands" you might end up pushing the knob straight ahead and letting the bat head drag behind. But if you think "throw bathead" that could possibly help in being quicker with the bat (quicker as in getting the bathead out in front quicker).

From what I can gather from Jack's background, he has accomplished what Charley Lau did years ago: he has observed certain mechanics and chacteristics common to many major league hitters, and I do indeed agree with many of his teachings.
However, there is one bit of research thatneither Jack or anyone else is capable of doing and that is reading someone's mind. I think that if Bonds, for example says that "throw the bat" works for him, and if we know from observation that his mechanics are sound (circular hand path,rotation around a stationary axis, etc), perhaps the concept has at least enough merit to be discussed and experimented with.