Posted by: jrm (jack.r.m@att.net) on Sat Sep 22 16:15:11 2001

I came here on a recommendation because my daughter plays for a fastpitch tournament team and I have questions about the "hitting down" theory in softball. However after reading that an underhand delivery cannot impart as much backspin as an overhand, and that it has been proven in many studies a ball cannot rise I will look somewhere else. I would like to know where I can see some of those many studies if anyone can tell me. My daughter pitches and throws a poor "rise ball". It's trajectory starts up to begin with and it is thrown with a lot of back spin. The first time our catcher caught it, the ball hit her in the mask as it cleared her glove. If the ball does not rise it certainly does not drop at the normal rate, until it runs out of lift, then it falls very quickly. That's good enough for me to call it a rise. Is that the reason for hitting down? The hitting instructor preaches hitting down to create hard grounders on a smaller infield and hitting line drives with significant back spin, no pop flys. Part of his explanation is that the girls do not have the same strength in the upper body to generate the same bat speed as boys. It is a quicker motion, but maybe not better in every aspect. Dot Richardson teaches something a little different in her videos, but it's also close to hitting down. By the way Louy, our team results using this are a little better than .200, we can be found on the ASA web site, we won the 14U ASA Eastern Nationals, but still trying to learn. The low batting averages in fastpitch softball could be due to the dominace of the pitcher, which could explain why all major organizations moved the distance back for pitching in 12U and in some international compititions, or it could be that no one in softball knows what their doing.
This all said, I'm not yet a beliver on the hitting down theory but trying to find my way out of my foggy softball beliefs.
JRM

I am not sure the swings are exactly the same. One of Mike Epstein's absolutes are that the plane of the swing matches the plane of the pitch. Since baseball pitches begin over the pitcher's head, while softball pitches come in from around knee level, one would conclude that baseball pitches come in with more downward movement. Therefore, I beleive the softball swing should be more level (to the ground)than a baseball swing, where a slight uppercut is preferrable.
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> > > > > > > I am hearing of more and more fastpitch players being taught to swing down into the ball ... Does anyone here see the need to hit fistpitch softball any different than baseball.
> > > > > > > > Jack, wouldnt the swings still be the same?
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> > > > > > BsH-
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> > > > > > One of the best answers ever to this question is from early '99 on Paul Nyman's website,and is still on the money.
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> > > > > > www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000025.html
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> > > > > > The best power swing is as Jack describes here.The trajectories of pitches are often flatter in softball,but most are still dropping.Reaction time is about the same as for baseball.The ball is bigger and heavier.Groundballs are worth more in softball.
> > > > > > As Paul mentions due to lack of strength and lack of expeience most girls end up getting taught to compensate(usually the coach doesn't realize what they are teaching) for this with suboptimal mechanics.The usual idea is that using a downward arm swing will make better contact and produce grounders/low hits that will generate offense given the short basepaths.I don't believe the offensive stats bear this out,and I believe girls can be taught the power swing described here with better results.
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> > > > > > Theoretically and practically,the swing described by Jack is quicker to the ball,more powerful,on the plane of the pitch longer and with less timing error.You can use a heavier bat without sacrificing much,if any batspeed.A heavier bat plus the fact that you are swinging on a matching plane imparts more energy to the ball at collision.Even if you use more of an upright axis,there should be some lift to the swing plane which gives excellent power that is just as effective if not more so than ground balls.
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> > > > > > Most girls start to swing with their arms before the stride foot is down causing prmature extension of the hand path/lunging and the lineear mechanics Jack mentions.Making the transition to a rotational swing powered by torso turn and good transfer mechanics will require learning a new grip,keeping the hands back during the stride,then rotating around a stationary axis and keeping the hands in a circular path driven by torso turn,not the arms;and applying torque from initiation to contact.
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> > > > > > A good way to start is to focus on crowding the plate and learning "bottom hand torque" for turning on the middle-in pitch.Pitchers are not used to getting beaten on the inside stuff.
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> > > > > Hitting is fast pitch is based on the idea of a "rise" ball- a ball that curves up. This is in possible as proved in many studies and test. It can't happen in base ball either.
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> > > > > But softball people insist that the ball rises therefore they must swing down. I assure you, you will not change their mind no matter the evidence. I have tried. As a result they teach what they teach.
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> > > > > The truly amazing thing is that with such poor performance, a team batting average under 200 is not unusual, parents, coaches, kids and paid instructors keep teaching the hitters these unsuccessful mechanics.
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> > > > > Go figure.
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> > > > > Louy R. I agree with those who advocate rotationalmechanics for the softball swing and it certainly appears that the riser does rise but its like a splitter in the dirt in hardball in that you only swing at it if you have been fooledby the pitch. it almost always ends up too high and out of the strike zone so the better players stay off it thepitcher generally has to then bring it down into the zone and out she goes.
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> > > The scientific evidence shows that a baseball cannot curve up. A hard ball thrown at 100 mph at 55 feet drops 2.61 inches. This is due to gravity and wind resistance. Also, a base ball is thrown over hand which gives it the maximum backward spin that would be required to make a ball rise. This cannot be done with a underhand throw.
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> > > You can't compare a ball droping with a ball rising. Droping is the natural thing for a ball to do. Why does a rise ball have to be high? why can they throw it low and have it break up into the strike zone. No one could hit it.
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> > > In the book "Keep Your Eye On The Ball" give a good explination and the math on the "rise ball." But beleiving there is a rise ball when there can't be a rise ball is a good example of why hitting in softball is in a dismal state and won't get any better.
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> > > Louy R.
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> > Sorry there is an error in my pervious post. A baseball thrown 100 mph over 55 ft will drop 2.61 feet, not inches.
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> > Louy R.
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> Louy -
> correct that you can't spin a softball and get it to rise... maybe drop less but not rise, same with a 4 seam fastball.
> However, with the fp release at lower thigh from flat ground, a pitch with an upward trajectory will 'rise' due to the force of the throw. From 30+ feet, you can throw a pitch right up over the catcher's head. It rises in that sense. And I see lots of girls swing as soon as it comes up, sometimes no matter how high it ends up. Not very different than boys swinging at eye-high fastballs.
> Best strategy is to let it go, I agree.