Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Mon Sep 10 06:09:26 2001

What is the movement that starts the top hand torque? My son is left handed and I can't tell from the tape exactly how to begin the "torque". Is it a "downward flip" of the wrist, or is it a "counter rotation" of the wrist, or is it combination? or am I completely lost?
> > > >
> > > > Also do any of you have opinions of an exercise that will make the correct motion happen faster?
> > >
> > > Jack points out in his tapes and on this site that the top hand's fingers pull back toward the catcher while the bottom hand remains stationary (doesn't pull forward). This starts the bat barrel arcing so it can have momentum when it arcs into the swing plane itself.
> > > Jack and I have discussed in the past the relationship of the back elbow to tht.
> > > It is my belief that the back elbow pulls down toward the ribs and this action causes the fingers to exert tht on the bat handle.
> > > In working with my students, I refer to this as the 'power elbow down' technique. I don't think Jack agrees with this.
> > > Make your own judgment. But watch Barry Bonds, Carl Everett, Gary Sheffield, etc. The hitters who 'rock' the bat in some way, or point it somewhat toward the pitcher, end up pulling the barrel back as their back elbow comes down toward their side.
> > > It is my impression that hitters do not intentionally pull back with the fingers of their top hand, ie, it is not a conscious action. But the bat waggle and elbow down action combine to do what they don't realize they are doing.
> > > Just my take on it.
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > The last analysis seems spot-on. The hand pull/elbow down action it seems also takes care to ensure that the elbow stays somewhat wide of the rib cage, wider for outside pitches than inside ones that is. On inside pitches, it seems the pull draws the back elbow almost behind the body, dropping it nearly into the hollow above the kidney. No question, this early arcing of the bat back separates the good hitters from the others. Good hitters pull the bat back and rotate, while others push their hands at the ball. In any case, fine observations.
> >>I was trying to discuss this last month and how this movement initiates.It is my belief that a stronger movement with more control is used when both hands make the bat go horizontal this is done by using the whole top wrist and thumb as well to pull the bat down as well as using the bottom hand to turn the bat back.The index finger of the bottom hand pushes back as the bottom of the hand is lifting up creating torque.To me you are incorporating more muscles into the movement instead of keeping one stationary andworking around it.I feel like you have more control of the bat as well with both working more as one.Lastly if you just use the elbow as your power source you could lead to bringing the elbow ahead of the hands which is a no no that could lead to dipping to much.I know this goes against some of the views here but if you work with both ideas for thousands of swings I think you well feel the difference,in my opinion.

RQL-
Good point about the role of both hands. Your comments on the role of the bottom hand made me think. When I observe the Sheffields, etc. they do just what you are talking about. I think your description is very good.
Concerning my characteriztion of 'power elbow down', objections well taken. I do not mean to power the elbow. In fact pulling the elbow down can result in both hands dropping and looping the bat beneath the ball. I meant the term more in the sense of using the elbow drop to the ribs as a means of getting the bat barrel moving and adding power through this movement. Perhaps I need better terminology.
The big picture in all this is that the point of top hand torque is to get the bat barrel moving before it gets pulled into the swing plane. Regardless of what it is called, Jack is absolutely correct in seeing that the better hitters use some variation of this technique and it contributes greatly to their success.
RQL, keep the ideas coming. I appreciate your insights. From your experience, do top level hitters understand this concept in some way? The only 'tips' I've ever heard that might relate somehow to what is here called top hand torque are vague references to keeping the hands alive, etc. Though I've seen plenty of MLB players use some variation of this technique I've never heard anyone mention or key in on what the players are doing.
In fact, after seeing a Pawtucket Red Sox game (AAA), I saw two of their top 'prospects' who don't use this technique at all. And while they have some power numbers it was clear to me observing their at-bats that don't really have the batspeed to excel at a Major League level. It makes me wonder if this whole thing is below the radar screen of current baseball people, that they are totally unaware of it and don't even see it when it is there or notice when it is missing. Is this a possibility?