Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Thu Jul 19 13:47:27 2001

Hi Jack,
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> You just posted this info:
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> I sorry if anything I stated led you to believe that a good swing did not require the use of the arms to supply torque to the bat as well as shoulder rotation. But a major problem I find with hitters using top-hand-torque is they are not only using the hands and arms to apply torque to the bat, they are also using them to bring the hands forward. This normally occurs as the batter lowers the back-elbow to accelerate the bat-head back toward the catcher. Instead of also pulling the top-hand back as the elbow lowers, the batter brings the hands forward. This causes earlier separation of the lead-arm - more flex in the lead-elbow and less linkage. It also results in premature lowering of the back-forearm. Now, the rotational plane of the back-wrist is no longer in the plane of the swing.
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> The bottom line is, using the arms to accelerate the hands instead of keeping them back and allowing shoulder rotation to bring the hands, leads to a weaker swing, wrist binds and a wavy swing plane. --- The hands and arms are used to apply torque (hands applying force from opposing directions - a balanced system), the hand-path is accelerated by the (1) rotation of the shoulders, (2) the bats reaction to angular displacement and (3) the sweep of the back-forearm as it lowers from vertical to horizontal.
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> At the start of the swing, the most active hand is the top-hand. During initiation, the top-hand is pulling back toward the catcher -- I do not think that could be thought of as "throwing the hands" - at lease not forward. --- At the end of the swing, the bottom-hand is also pulling back toward the catcher - So I just cannot see this action as throwing the hands.
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> Jack Mankin
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> My question is do you feel that your combining swinging and striding (with linkage problems) when talking about THT and initiation.
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> If a hitters 'linkage' is bad, lets say the hitter has perfect lower body rotation, there is no pull on the lead arm (lots of flex 'until extension'). I find this to be a problem when hitters start to open the shoulders (unwind) before the front heel gets down. They often start to lower the elbow well before the lower body starts.
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> The hands are swinging with the lower body without the use of the shoulder complex. Shoulder rotation then starts to turn more with the hips after the hands start to extend and the lead arm finally starts to straighten, giving the hitter a big 'wush' out front.
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> This is also close to being a bat dragger and trying to 'aim' the barrel early. This seems to cancel out the shoulders as part of the upperbody in the swing.
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> Aside from my 'swinging and striding' question. The hitter with this problem doesn't have the shoulders, arms, elbows, hands, working together. They bypass the shoulders and only use the lower body (legs, hips). Instead of the front shoulder tucking (slightly) in as the stride is completed, tightning the linkage, they start to open slightly.
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> In golf there is a basic goal of trying to accelerate your down stroke with the hips lowerbody. To my knowledge this means shoulder rotation. Isn't the same true the baseball swing? And aren't we talking about the same biomechanical principles in both swings (golf, baseball, fastpitch). If the hands (back elbow) start prior to the shoulders you lose alot of batspeed and in both swings are subject to major swings flaws?
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> Thanks, I can't seem to keep up with all the posts on this site.
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> Shawn

I won't pretend to answer for Jack but I want to throw in my two cents.
I envision the start of hip rotation, the part before commitment as the last phase of loading up energy prior to turning it all loose.
At the same time (approx.) as front foot down to front heel down, the upper body program starts with tht getting the barrel moving while leaving the lead arm stretched, unchanged.
The result of these concurrent 'just pre-swing' actions is that the when the swing is turned loose, the hips are already opening and the bat is already moving with decent batspeed.
Consequently, the linking of hip turn to shoulder rotation that pulls the lead arm into the swing plane does so with hips really going and the bat barrel already well in motion.
The quickness that results is just as Jack describes - batspeed at or before contact.
I was watching the Pawtucket Redsox the other day (AAA) for the first time this year and casually evaluating Izzy Alcantara, Juan Diaz and Dernell Stenson. Izzy has 'it'. The others don't. The difference is dramatic. Izzy's bat is 'lively', 'quick bat', 'quick hands', etc.
Nobody understands that it is initiation that is at the root of it.
It works. My son has gone from 60ish MPH to 75-80 MPH on the Setpro machine. On live balls, they jump, but its not consistent yet.