Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Thu Jul 19 09:01:09 2001

>>> GRC my mistake with the name above and I'm not advocating using the arm to throw the hands I'm advocating a cue if it works for someone to clear the hips and throw the hands,however what is actually happening is the hips open allowing the shoulder turn and then the arms and hands torque yet it feels like the hands are being thrown.Teach the process but in the end a hitter can't focus on the whole process so the beginning and end works for them,even though the middle is essential as well they just have it on auto pilot.I think Bonds idea of hitting a nail with a hammer may be his idea of putting that small sweet spot on the ball,helps his hand eye coordination. <<<
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> > > > > > Hi RQL
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> > > > > > I agree it is helpful to have a simple cue that can produce the entire motion we are looking for. But to most coaches, "clear the hips and throw the hands" has come to mean that the batter should "freeze the shoulders" and use the arms to throw the hands.
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> > > > > > What would you think of the cue "sling the hands?" Which means the batter would keep his hands back and allow shoulder rotation to sling the hands to the zone. This would entail using good lower and upper body rotational mechanics. It should also produce the proper angular hand-path while keeping the arms and hands in a good relationship to the rotating body. --- Your thoughts?
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> > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > Jack,I agree it can be taken out of context by many coaches but these are great hitters and they have learned to incorporate a simple thought to produce the entire swing.I used almost the same words is why I felt strong that it could work as long as it is taught right.Sling the hands would work well also for some.often the way certain words flow through your lips and mind are what makes for a cue,try them both using clear the hips 1st and pass it on to students.A bigger issue here to me though is what is making the hands feel thrown or slung or released.Jack,I feel torque does little without shoulder rotation and I believe shoulder rotation does little without torque.Think of a car that starts out in 1st gear [hips]then smoothly transfers to 2nd[shoulder turn initiated] then jumps into 3rd where it can take off[torque being applied and together they accelerate the bat to another gear.If we say the throwing of ,or slinging of the hands comes from only shoulder rotation then I think we are missing it.Shoulders are essential,but your explanation of what torque is has really opened my eyes to the use of the hands and forearms.Its their relationship and timing with the shoulders that I feel give these hitters the feeling of throwing their hands.
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> > > > rql,Jack,grc et al-
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> > > > My understanding of Jack's work is that every swing is ideally a combo of stationary axis,circular hand path and constant application of torque from launch(or before) through contact.The real basic eye openers for me were the steering wheel knob,swivel chair and tht golf club drills on Jack's tape.The golf club drill demonstrates how tht can create rapid acceleration to top speed,more tht,the faster you get to max speed with the long(fixed) radius of the golf swing(golf grip engineered to minimize bht/maximize clubhead control).Jack has observed that the great hitters have learned to do this-they get the bathead out fast on the away pitch and hit it a long way with higher trajectory and more to the pull field than if they just waited on the ball and let it get deep.This swing requires a circular handpath with a longer radius,more tophand torque earlier and powerful rotation of less duration.Jack believes that the simplest/most consistent way to control this adjustment is by variation of hand torquing/direction of top hand pull at initiation so that on the outside pitch there is more tht and a wider swing radius created by direction of tht at initiation,after which ability to adjust greatly diminishes.When you hear pros talk about the cues they use,how do they describe this swing shape/adjustment?How do these cues fit with the reality Jack observes?
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> > > Tom.Guerry....was that you?..............i was especially impressed with the steering wheel knob experiment.....it clearly demonstrates the flaws in a "knob to the ball" swing for an inside pitch...........but tom, you said "the great hitters have learned to do this-they get the bathead out fast on the away pitch and hit it a long way with higher trajectory and more to the pull field than if they just waited on the ball and let it get deep.This swing requires a circular handpath with a longer radius" .........are you saying that you should PULL an outside pitch?.....please allow me to be more specific in my question: on an inside pitch,i feel that the optimal bat angle at contact (in relation to the front edge of the plate that faces the pitcher) is about +30 degrees....for a middle pitch, perhaps 0 degrees and for an outside pitch maybe -15 degrees......i know we may be generalizing here...there can be many exceptions, but please indulge me: it's easier for me to understand if we use reference points......what would YOU say are the optimal bat angles at contact?...............also, i'm sure i understand what you mean by This swing requires a circular handpath with a longer radius" , but just to be sure, are you saying that for an outside pitch the rear elbow is going to have to get farther away from the body?....if so, combine that with in effect trying to hit an outside pitch in front of the plate and you have "casting" (remember, Rx for casting is the fence drill!!!).............i don't know, tom, maybe if you have the time and pacience you can straighten me out, but i see some inconsistencies here......outside pitch, you seem to say pull it.....but then you subscribe to epsteins position that on an inside pitch you hit the inside part of the ball, I.E., inside-out the ball........sounds backwards to me.........respectfully, grc
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> > grc-
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> > I forgot to sign the post.This is my interpretation of what Jack has observed and presented.This is not what is typically thought of as casting or hitting around the away pitch-this is done by extending/making linear/losing the circularity of the handpath which should indeed be discouraged.The mechanic Jack describes prevents the batter from "getting behind the power curve" with transfer mechanics that are more efficient because of maintaining the circular handpath and getting the bathead out quicker.I would be interested if Jack thinks this interpretation is accurate and if rql thinks this fits with what he hears the big boys say when they describe their swingthoughts.One example of this kind of swing was the one that ruined the Giants last year(?Agbayani/Righty)homer to left center in extra innings at Pacbell Park on nasty outside low pitch from Felix Rodriguez at 95+mph.Benny was not waiting and letting it get deep,nor was he extending the hands and going the opposite way.
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> tom....you used a term that i don't recall having heard before from you or jack: "getting behind the power curve"......i don't know what you mean, but after having just read one of jack's posts on another topic, maybe i do...............................he said " Good hitters are able to have a 10 to 15 degree up-swing in the contact zone because they accelerate the bat-head on a downward angle back behind them (at the catcher). The arc of the bat-head then bottoms-out and starts upward into the contact zone. --- If the batter shoves his hands forward ahead of rotation, the bat-head will be angling downward more in front of the batter. It will not bottom-out and start upward until after the bat passes through the contact zone ("swing down on the ball"). ".....................i think jack is saying that the sooner the downward arc of the swing starts , the sooner the bat will start it's upswing......and i further assume he's talking about "sooner" in 'space', not time.....in other words, the farther back that your hands are when you start the downward arc of the swing, the sooner the arc will bottom out & leave more "space" for the upswing........am i completely off base, or is this by any chance what you and jack mean by "being behind the power curve"?........if the answer is positive, that will explain a lot to me....if the answer is negative (that is, i'm way off base), then please explain to me what this term means.........respectfully, grc.....

grc-

This is my reading of the underlying principles,not stuff I would necessarily discuss with any student or most coaches,and not stuff the hitter would necessarily be conscious of.

I believe the "power curve" phrase has been used a couple of times by Jack.I interpret"not getting behind" this as meaning that there has been good sequencing and timing of the swing so that the rotational energy of the body gets well transferred to the bat with good timing.It is easier(more margin of timing error) to transfer energy out of the torso on the middle in pitch depending more on bht.In the case of the away pitch,the energizing of the torso has to take place over a shorter period of time/torso motion and it will come out faster because of the longer swing radius.The energy can be transferred out to the bat to give equivalent power only by getting the bat head out faster and at the right time.The hand path must be kept from extending as the bathead gets out in either case.If you delay getting the bathead out or get it out(fire the bat head) slowly you will be behind the power curve.THT gives you a jump start on firing the bathead.

Now for the truly bizarre stuff.Most great hitters have to start the swing the same way and have it underway(prelaunch portions)for every pitch,then adjust accordingly as the pitch is read.They generally get the stride foot down with the same timing for every pitch for a given pitcher(some variation depending on how much they are anticipatin/sitting on a certain pitch).Before and after the front toe touches,the upper and lower half are separating,and at some point there is a reversal and then some closing(muscle contraction occurs lessening separation).What is usually "felt" as turning the hips,however,is not necessarily the opening of the hips as separation occurs or even the reversal and lessening of separation.I believe what is felt is the "bracing up" of hip rotation/firming of the front side which slows hip rotation and begins whipping of momentum to the upperbody.This can only happen(for swinging a heavy bat/club)efficiently after the front heel has come down and the front leg can bear weight.Once it has happened,the torso is then adequately energized for the bathead to be fired(which triggers transfer out of the torso to the bat using well timed hand torque while keeping the hands from getting away from the body).

So for the away pitch,the hitter proceeds with his stride/separation/closing,but delays(relative to inside pitch)hip "snap"(deceleration of hip turn triggering upward transfer of momentum/"rotational whip").During this time a wider swing radius and preparation of bathead for faster firing(tht)is hapening.The bathead then needs to get out during a much more limited degree of torso rotation or you will fall behind the "power curve".

I suspect this is more than even you would like to hear,but let me know what you think when you digest this.