Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Fri Jun 29 08:39:25 2001

TOM.....i don't want to beat a dead horse.....i know that my concern with the fence drill is well documented, but please bear with me.....the distinguished Jack Mankin once said about the fence dril: "why would we think that accelerating the heel of the bat ( or the hands) while keeping the bat head back during a good portion of the swing would result in greater batspeed and a shorter stroke than actively trying to accelerate the bat head from the start?"..........jack also said: "without moving away from the fence, self-toss (or have someone feed you) balls and see just how effectively you can hit.--good luck"..........i read your latest post and i appreciate the response, but i still don't get it........even with the bat one bat-length between the fence and the hitter's stomach, i have observed exactly what jack stated above: " keeping the bat head back during a good portion of the swing"......and the bat head has to stay back because the fence is in the way.....if i understand you and epstein correctly, you simply are tightening the circular hand path..........but if i tighten my circular hand path sufficiently in order to let the bat clear the fence, i end up having not a circular hand path but rather, at the tail end of the swing a circular wrist path..............again, i don't want to beat this thing to death......if it were almost anyone else besides you or epstein recomending the fence drill, i would simply ignore the matter......but you and epstein have so many other ideas that make so much sense that i don't want to be too quick to dismiss your views on the fence drill....i just want to understand how you can, because the fence is in the way, wait until the bat has cleared the fence before arcing the bat out and around.......(remember, using the tip of the bat head as a reference point, it too has a circular path, but not with a fence in the way!!!!)......thank you for your patience.....respectfully, grc......
> >
> > grc-
> >
> > I think the fence drill is one way to teach keeping the hands in.So are cues like "hit the inside of the ball".The coach needs to be careful that these drills and cues which are not necessarily what happens in reality are monitored to give the desired result as part of an overall program.Some kids can learn a less casting swing(keep hands in as swing handpath arcs forward using hands/arms to torque bat,not extend handpath) using a fence.I do not use this much,and never(so far)as a way of keeping the arms from extending at initiation(?the way Mike Epstein uses it).
> >
> > If you look at the swing from the bird's eye view I think the bellybotton fence distance is compatible with the circular handpath.Unfortunately,I don't have access to many clips like this.If you look at Rose's swing on an outside pitch,the fence could be along the inside line of the other batter's box,and he is about bellybutton distance away(35"bat?).The swing would fit well within this distance for the middle-in pitch to get the sweetspot on the ball while keeping the circular handpath.
> >
> > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000506.html
>
> grc -
> "using the tip of the bat head as a reference point, it too has a circular path, but not with a fence in the way!!!!"
> exactly.
> I am guessing that the fence drill was invented and used to eliminate early casting. It was not intended to destroy a circular hand path. It must have been really popular with the linear theories of the 80's since it does promote a 'pull the knob to the pitcher' linear hand path.
> Used in moderation to remove early casting, a swing might then evolve into a circular hand path - unless the fence drill was used to the point of ingraining the linear hand path it creates.
> The fact that Epstein promotes and exaggerates the fence drill, shows you how poorly evolved his upper body mechanics theories are.
> It is really confounding to me that he can propose all his rotational upper body mechanics (and they are eerily similar to Jack's) and yet suggest drills that Jack finds destructive to those mechanics.
> This is possible if the ideas are cobbled together from other sources. It is possible if Epstein 'misuses' the fence drill just enough to get the right results. But if this latter is the case, how can he pass on that knowledge to anyone else?
> I think there is one way to use the fence drill effectively :
> Do correct chp swings moving progressively forward toward the fence until the tip of the bat just touches the fence as you swing correctly. Then move 1 inch away from the fence and swing/hit front toss, etc. If you cast early, you will hit the fence, otherwise you won't. How far will you be from the fence? Check out the Rose clip (the one from above) - bat length + some hands distance from the body.

Dan,grc,and anyone who really cares exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin-

Dan has agood idea.I think the bat tip will be a little closer than Dan describes.If you are not hitting around the ball,and you hit the ball "square"- bat perpendicular to the ball's path-and it's a middle in pitch so the "L" is still in the elbow at contact,then the bat tip is going to be closest to the fence at contact.If the ball is middle in,and you hit it on the sweetspot,then the tip of the bat is going to be the distance from the sweetspot to the tip away from the fence.The Rose clip is for an outside pitch that Pete hits with a circular handpath of the appropriate radius to get the sweetspot on the ball(tip would be closest to fence at about contact).If he took a similar "shape" swing at a middle pitch,the fence could be closer because he would turn more before the bathead is extended out of the arc of the handpath and the swing radius would be less with the bat tip getting to the outside of the plate at contact(tip nearest fence).So I think bellybutton distance is often enough.Another thing to look for is the hands staying ahead of the back elbow as a sign of good synchronization.This sequence means the body turns quite a bit before the bathead fires which is what gives plenty of room for the circular handpath even with a fence at belly button distance for the middle in pitch.I think I like Dan's idea better than bellybutton.If you learn your own swing shape when it's working and it's a certain distance,then you can check mechanics this way when you hit the inevitable bad patch.