Posted by: gRaND Slam Man () on Sat Jun 10 11:14:02 2006

> >>> Now to the bag part,if i ever swung that way jacc, I'd end up in a CAST om a bag. ny MAN says that a bag exercise will cause injury...bes in the hans i think, and possible other problems. cAn you please set me stragt on how to jar or not jarr into the bagg without injuRy? <<<
>
> Hi Grand Slam Man
>
> We can discuss Nyman’s description of the role of the legs in hip rotation in another post. For now, I will address his comments that swinging at a heavy bag results in discomfort and possible injury. You also quoted him as saying, - “Well to make a long story short, after breaking my favorite 34", Alex Rodríguez wooden bat (split from just above my hands almost all the way to the end of the bat). And then breaking my 34" Jeff Bagwell wooden bat (snappeed cleanly and half just above the hands), all of which occurred in the first 10 swings,” -- The readers can judge for themselves the merit of that statement.
>
> Nyman has repeatedly claimed that torque (forces applied at the handle from opposing directions) is not a factor in the swing. Yet, he now claims that his swing supplied sufficient torque at contact to snap off two wood bats at the handle. – “What a tangled web we weave…”
>
> Below is a post from the Archives I wrote regarding the heavy bag.
>
> Jack Mankin
> ##
>
> Re: Clarification on the use of hitting a heavy bag
>
> Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Thu Sep 29 10:43:28 2005
>
> >>> Need some guidance. I have a group a 10U girls that play fast pitch softball. I was wanting to get the hitting bag for them to work on. Couple of questions first. Is this a good toll for this age. Second - Ive always heard that the bat speed after ball contact is importnat for ball distance. If this is true will the hitting bag help or do I need to go back to the deflated balls. If not how do I get my girls to swing all the way through after ball contact
>
> Thanks in advance <<<
>
> Hi Robert
>
> When you watch a good lumberjack swing an axe, you find that he has expended all his energy and his hands have ceased to drive forward as the blade sinks into the tree. It is the momentum of the axe that sinks the blade – not the hands continuing to drive the handle. The tree stopped the blade so we see no follow-through. But if the tree were not there, it would be the axe’s momentum that pulled the hands and arms around the follow-through – not the arms extending.
>
> Practicing hitting the heavy bag with a bat uses the same principle as a lumberjack’s axe striking a tree – it is the bat speed generated before contact that counts. Continuing to drive the bat through the follow-through is wasted energy. Below is a post from the Archives on this topic.
>
> Jack Mankin
> ##
>
> Confusion/heavy bag drill
>
> Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Thu Jun 21 20:16:08 2001
>
> <u>Jack Mankin's comment:</u>
>
> Hi All:
>
> I have noticed from reading post on other forums that there is some confusion regarding the "heavy bag drill." Many coaches seem to think the batter attempts to develop a more powerful swing by driving through the bag or causing the bag to move or swing. These coaches equate hitting the heavy bag to that of hitting deflated basketballs or similar objects, but nothing could be farther from the truth. The principles to be learned from the heavy bag drills are completely opposite to mechanics developed from swinging at tossed deflated basketballs.
>
> The concepts surrounding the "follow-through" or coast-out phase of the swing have long been misunderstood. Coaches have been taught that to hit the ball hard the batter must continue to drive through the ball well after contact. So it is quite understandable why many coaches would adopt drills that would require the batter to continue "pushing" the bat through the follow-through phase. For example, to propel a deflated basketball forward would require that the basketball remain in contact with the bat for an extended time where the bat could move forward 8 or more inches after the initial contact. Swinging at deflated basketballs would definitely require that the batter continue applying energy to the bat well after contact.
>
> Hitting a baseball is a very different story. The baseball is only in contact with the bat for approximately 1/2000 of a second and the bat moves forward less than 3/4 of an inch. Therefore, any energy applied to the bat after contact has NO effect on the ball's flight and is wasted energy. Good transfer mechanics will deplete all bat speed-generating energy prior to or by contact. This is a major difference between average hitters and great hitters. The mechanics of most average hitters develops bat speed much later in the swing. These hitters continue applying forces to the bat well after passing the optimum contact point. That is why they have little power to the opposite field and many of their better-hit balls are pulled foul.
>
> The purpose of using a heavy bag to absorb the bat's energy at the contact point is to train the batter to expend all bat speed-generating energy (rotational and torque) prior to or by contact. Good transfer mechanics and timing will have the batter depleting his rotational and torque energy as the bat-head reaches maximum velocity. -- Stated another way, all the energy has been sucked out of the system as maximum bat speed is reached.
>
> Therefore, after all of the body's energy has been transferred into bat speed, the body and limb muscles are at rest. The hip and shoulder rotation is complete -- lead-arm pull and back-forearm lowering to horizontal (the "L" position) is complete -- the hand-path has slowed to a stop -- there is NO energy being applied to the bat -- the bat's energy has been expended into the heavy bag -- all motion has ceased -- all muscles are relaxed. Thus, you now have a frozen frame of the batters mechanics at contact.
>
> This is not the case with inefficient swing mechanics. Improper initiation of the swing (for example, thrusting the top-hand forward) quickly places the batter behind the power curve and he or she is left trying to develop bat speed after the bat reaches contact. Striking the heavy bag with tense arms that are still driving forward can cause discomfort to the hands and wrist. I would advise taking it easy until the batters' transfer mechanics have improved.
>
> I think you can now see that the mechanics developed while swinging at deflated basketballs are quite different than those used in the heavy bag drill. A batter’s progress will be slowed when hitting any object that requires the batter to reserve energy for a powerful follow-through. In a good swing, the bat's momentum will pull the body and limbs through the coast-out phase of the swing, not reserved energy.
>
> Jack Mankin

Hi Agan Jack,

Good post,lets keep it cominG!

i Really respect the intellEct of ny Man,for all his work on ananomy and science of the swing, and think he understanDs many parts of it i.e.e.g. postre and fish hook, but I cannot swing 100 % like N MAnn says. Once agan, despite him being too curt, i do respect him.

The problem i have with his model is i find that my body after about twenty swings TIRES!

I did read your site, and HERE is my take (3 observations)

1) The body rotates the body in the double straght, double L position at impact w / the bag.

2) The front knee rotates into a straght position at contact, and allows the fixed elbow joint / front shoulder to rotate along with it...this is half the rotation....

3) The back leg rotates until it is in an "L" shape at contact, this causes the forearm to roll down and around. This is the other half the rotation...

By the way, i dont think i can describe what you say scientificxally (i have a degree in marKeting, and am an atrocios spelleer), but your axcis-axis model seems like the salt-and-pepper shaker rides at carnivals...i mean the body rotates (the big turning wheel)...and the hands rotatte arond each other (the shaker that you spin around in and get dizzy) at the same time!

Rotation of the lower body will directly impact w / power only through GOOD connection.

Jacc, thanxs for the reply.
GranD Slam Man