Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Mon Jun 11 08:01:37 2001

In reading the Charlie Lau school of thought much is said about hitting the ball slightly downwards to create backspin. In your video you don't discuss this at all...what are your thoughts on this and is there a different technique needed to achieve backspin when swinging with rotational mechanics?
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> > > > > > > This is the way it was explained by Epstein on how torque rotational mechanics do this:
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> > > > > > > "You need to regulate the swing through "weathervaning" the lead elbow. If a player is taught correctly to get the plane of his swing on the plane of the pitch, he not only increases his contact area immeasurably, but sets himself up correctly to hit line drives. IF, the player is a little "late," he will hit the bottom-half of the ball which will produce a fly ball with "back spin," a desirable combination; a fly ball with "carry" to it. On the other hand, if he is a little "early," he will hit the top-half of the ball, producing a ground ball with "over spin," another highly favorable combination; a ground ball which gains momentum. Now, if the player times the pitch correctly and hits it dead-on, the stronger hitters can actually stop the rotation of the pitch altgether, producing 100 mph "knuckle balls." I did it for nine years in the big leagues, trying to catch these line drives playing first base. They're murder to catch -- no matter WHERE they're hit. So, if a hitter can match the plane of his swing to the plane of the pitch, lots of great things can happen. He has the best of all possible worlds!"
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> > > > > > > Hope this helps, it sure makes sense to me
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> > > > > > > i don't know much about the weathervaning concept, although it sounds intriguing & i would love to learn more about it....in the meantime, i'll give my 2 cents.....i take exception with lau's assertion that you obtain backspin by hitting down on the ball.....all that might accomplish is ground balls with backspin....and the difference in a grounder with backspin vs. no back spin is that the friction of ball and ground will always cause the ball to slow down, but the ball with backspin will not slow down quite as quick............what you want is backspin with the ball hit in the air.....and this is achieved not by swinging down, it is achieved simply by contacting the ball about 1/2 inch below center of ball...........steve garvey said this is always how he achieved backspin............there was a book published called "keep your eye on the ball", authored by bahill and someone....it goes into much more scientific detail than adair's book ...there is an entire chapter analyzing how far below center of ball to contact it in order to achieve maximum backspin....maybe lau should read that book......respectfully, grc.....
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> > > > > grc -
> > > > > Thank you. Excellent response. Actually hitting down on the ball to create backspin would require an incredible piece of timing, something no human could accomplish vs. 90MPH+ pitching with any regularity.
> > > > > As you state, hitting slightly below center imparts some backspin while hitting the ball hard and in the air - the desired result.
> > > > > ALso, any mismatch of swing plane to pitch plane where the swing plane is slightly less (below) the ball causes the same effect.
> > > > > Swinging down if done successfully would result in lots of spin but little drive on the ball. You actually see those sometimes- Texas leaguers, bunts 'lined' or lobbed softly into the field, etc.
> > > > > I saw Ichiro flair one over Pedro's head by clipping the bottom of the ball on one of his slaps - it cleared the mound and died short of 2nd base - he beat it out.
> > > > > But that is not a way to have continued success if you are really trying to do that regularly. I suggest we teack kids to try to hit dead center ball bat contact.when someone can hit that way and get constant knuckleball line drives to all fields then we may have someone able to aim for a part of the ball.
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> > > To All,
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> > > Reading all this silliness about "swinging down on the ball" reminds me of why I stopped coming to this site.
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> > > Lets put away your big "expert" hats and lets think about this logically. Don't worry, I will leave and you can put it back on and be the "expert" again.
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> > > Ok, lets work it out. The only way to swing "up" on the ball is to have your hands below the level of the pitch when you start your swing OR during the swing drop the bat below the level of the ball then up on it.
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> > > Almost all hitters have a trigger position that is about arm pit level. Therefore, high strikes, in fact ALL STRIKES, ARE below the hands.
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> > > On a waist high pitch down the milldle of the plate the batter would have to lower his hands to his hip before launching the swing OR during the swing swoop the bat down to hip level then up on the ball. Who have you ever seen do this? Who teaches this?? Do you?
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> > > All swings at pitches in the strike zone are on a downward path. Its only a matter of degree depending on where the bat is launched from and the height of the pitch.
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> > > Come on guys, I know you all want to be "experts" but at least try to make sense of your silliness. Thanks for the reminder of how rediculous this site is.
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> > > You can put on your "epert" hats again. Iamottahere.
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> > > Joe A.
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> > > Hey, Joe A, you are one strange dude. I hearby command you to go away for good, or at least until you get the help you need. You know that no one pays attention to anything you say. You are so ignorant of baseball, lack manners or common sense and in general you make an ass of yourself. Stop embarassing yourself this way and stay away. You are not wanted!!!! Dig????
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> Joe A.
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> I think you are a jack ass too. But, I am waiting to read what the response is to your comments. What you said makes sense to me. But, if you are correct what are all these people talking about when they say "swinging down" up "or swining up" as if they had a choice.
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> In the future why don't you try being more polite. Maybe someone will be more positive about the things you post.
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> Louy R.

Don't know who Joe is but his point misses the point. No player starts their hands and bat below the ball, swings up and finishes high. No player starts the hands high, swings down and finishes with the bat and hands low.
No swing is one constant straight line.
Every swing starts with the bat barrel above the contact point and almost always finishes with the bat barrel above contact point.
After starting down, the swing plane 'levels off' through contact, then rises on follow through.
During the contact area, some hitters advocate a 10 degree upward slope - to match the downward slope of the pitched ball. Others suggest a level to the ground swing. Others may even advocate a slight downward angle.
The angle of the swing plane during the 'contact phase' is what is being discussed.
Glad to know Joe A is 'outta here' as his complete (and possibly intentional) misunderstanding of the discussion adds nothing to it.

IMO, swing plane during Contact phase should match the plane of the pitch as much as possible, in order to maximize the chance of solid contact by elogating the time during the swing when the ball and bat can contact straight on.
IMO, trying to spin a ball on purpose by using non-optimal swing angles is significantly more difficult and not reproducable with any consistency against real pitching.