Posted by: ray porco () on Wed May 9 07:34:11 2001

anybody,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > definition of balance can be complicated or simple. is balance "physical equilibrium"? if so, am i balanced with my feet together, with my feet 12 inches apart from each other, with them spread as far as i can stretch? how about balance with regard to time? to achieve a position of balance do i have to hold this position for a determined amount of time - say 10 seconds, or can it be just a mille-second, or perhaps not even discernably recognized as "holding" (just passing through the balance point on you way to the other side).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How about shifting? is it hitting the right key on my keyboard in order to capitalize? (comic relief!) how about changing the place of something? or the position of something? or the direction of something? and then when we combine the two - balance and shift. doesn't THAT complicate things! do we just think of it as weight of one side in excess of another? is it that simple?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > AND THEN, balance and shift with respect to the baseball swing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > a simple experiment:
> > > > > > > > > > round 1 - stand facing a mirror and place your feet tightly together. lift your left leg (or right) and watch the position of your head in relation to the right (balancing) foot?
> > > > > > > > > > round 2 - this time start out with your feet 12 inches apart (with your head centrally located - between your feet, that is). lift your left leg (or right) and watch the position of your head in relation to the balancing foot AND the distance the head must travel.
> > > > > > > > > > round 3 - the further you spread (with your head centrally located between your feet), the further your head must travel to balance when you lift one of your legs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > NOW, what the hell is the point.
> > > > > > > > > > i think watching the head in relation to the feet and the distance the head travels, is the key to defining weight shift and balance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > take 3 hitters (all RH). all start with their heads centrally located between their feet, which are spread apart shoulder width. the first, strides forward 6 inches with the left foot (he does not shift his head PRIOR to lifting his stride leg). as his stride leg goes forward, his head must go forward, but this hitter tries to keep his head centrally located between both feet. the second hitter DOES shift his head (over his right leg - balancing in the process) PRIOR to lifting his stride leg. now he steps. his head does not have to shift (or go forward). the third hitter shifts his head OVER his stride leg upon striding.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > call me crazy, but i call the third guy a "lunger", the second guy - "rotational", and the first guy - "weight shift". bonds is an example of hitter number two and palmiero is an example of number one. yea, there are varying degrees to each, but watching the head in relation to the feet determines the degree.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > just trying to create a model for definition and comparison. feel free to throw darts.
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> > > > > > > > > > ray porco
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ray -
> > > > > > > > > I agree that #3 would give the appearance of lunging.
> > > > > > > > > I have been looking at clips on Setpro to test your theory.
> > > > > > > > > [url]http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000152.html[/url] has clips of Ruth, Williams, Mantle, Aaron. I've also looked at Griffey on the Members forum.[there are also some in the regular forum].
> > > > > > > > > Griffey is close to a #1 He keeps his head back early on. Williams and Ruth are #2's - head clearly travels with body. Mantle appears to be a #2 but it is a bad angle. Aaron's clip is one where is goes and gets a low outside pitch. He is a #3 in that clip. I've seen him on other clips with better pitches and he is the closest to a #3 of any of the hitters, though Ruth also has a noticable forward bend at the waist entering hip turn. A clip of Hornsby in the members forum shows him to be a #2.
> > > > > > > > > The Williams clip is most interesting. He is a #2 - head travels with the body, pretty centered. Then his hips slide forward, putting his head behind his hips, then hip rotation occurs.
> > > > > > > > > The Ruth clip is his Happy Gilmore swing. On his last left foot step, he leaves his head over his back foot (#1), then strides, then, amazingly, moves his upper body and head forward again (#3)! during initial hip rotation, only to have the hips turn under him and move forward enough to rebalance him (#2). Strange but I've heard this was a BP swing and he may have been showing off or fooling around (Happy Gilmore in a game???).
> > > > > > > > > Think of the implications of Ruth's fun swing - if he was going for maximum show on an easy BP pitch, he added EXTRA forward linear momentum with the Happy Gilmore run up; after getting weight back, he shifted everything (hips to head) forward again; and he delayed the pushback until into the early stages of hip turn - much later than on a normal swing. Its like he was pushing the envelope, cheating a bit to put something extra on a ball that was easier to hit. Of course this is all speculation.
> > > > > > > > > Ray, from these clips, I'd say that your model leaves way too much in doubt. It makes Williams ( and most hitters) a weight shifter, Aaron a lunger, Ruth out of control (maybe your theory is right ).
> > > > > > > > > Beyond that head and feet aren't indicator of rotational hitting. Any hitter that does not rotate the lower body isn't much of a hitter (show me a major leaguer who locks his hips sideways and doesn't turn them towards the pitcher). As Jack always points out, it is transfer mechanics, shoulder rotation and the relationship of shoulders and arms that really defines rotational hitting, not just if the lower body turns.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm thinking, the longer the stride, the more the head travels. A true #3 is a lunger. A true #1 is a back foot spinner/squish the bug guy. A #2, a balanced hitter.
> > > > > > > > > But it is not the feet and head that we should be looking at. Where is the torso going? Do the hips/torso shift forward past the rest of the body before roatating?
> > > > > > > > > Rotational - shoulders turn arms/bat into contact. Linear - arms push bat forward away from body into contact. Aaron showed that a #3 can be rotational. Williams a #2 rotational. Griffey a #1 that is rotational. Feet and head are not the indicators.
> > > > > > > > > Sorry if that is a big dart.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > major,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > your quote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Beyond that head and feet aren't indicator of rotational hitting. Any hitter that does not rotate the lower body isn't much of a hitter (show me a major leaguer who locks his hips sideways and doesn't turn them towards the pitcher)".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the more i read those two lines the more i felt i was being insulted.
> > > > > > > > boy, you don't give me much credit if you think i expect some kid to go to bat and hit a ball without turning his hips. look here, - it's head location in reference to foot location which (am throwing out for discussion) is the indicator of how much weight shift occurs in each individual swing, BEFORE rotation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > how about a little of your own medicine? this is your reply to coach tom (fri may 4 05:58:12 2001):
> > > > > > > > "You misunderstood one very important point. I am referring to forward movement of the hips BEFORE hip rotation, not during."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this is the basis of the whole line of recent discussions started by YOU on may 1 - "Weight shift and balance before lower body rotation".
> > > > > > > > am i to be left out?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > even weight shift hitters (and i'm starting to not like categorizing this way) rotate. what i'm talking about is DEGREES of weight shift, and to what degree this has to happen for you to be considered weight-shift or rotational.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ray porco
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ray -
> > > > > > > Sorry, I wasn't trying to insult you. I know you are knowledgeable and that no one hits with locked hips.
> > > > > > > We are on the same page in that we are talking about weight shift, etc. before rotation. My only point is that I don't think head and feet are the best indicators - they are more effect than cause. We may certainly learn something from looking at it the way you propose. I am starting to think that hip movement is more of a cause than an effect and that how the hips move affects how the head and feet move and affects upper body rotational actions as well. So that may be more central.
> > > > > > > Jack has maintained that there are many variations of lower body rotation that can work with upper body rotational mechanics. But that is the upper body rotational mechanics that determine the great hitters. If so, then the head and feet analysis may end up with confused results if the upper body mechanics are ignored.
> > > > > > > I suspect you are thinking that certain lower body mechanics force you away from upper body rotational mechanics. Is that what you are thinking?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > major dan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for what i'm thinking - see my reply to your reply of my reply to your reply of my post "searching for a definition".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and jack, please, i sure would like to know what your thinking. i promise i'll be good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ray porco
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray -
> > > > > check out this clip from Shawn Bell
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.geocities.com/leebell1970/hankslow.html
> > > > >
> > > > > This is both extremes but they both rotate around the spine. Are there any absolutes??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > major dan,
> > > >
> > > > nice clips.
> > > > i see aaron as weight shift. i see his axis of rotation more forward (toward front foot) than other batter. who is other batter?
> > > > again, notice head in relation to feet. if you could stop action at point where stride foot lands you would see that aaron's head is more toward front foot than other batter. continuing, if you could stop action at point of contact you would see that aaron's head is more over front foot and the other batter's head is now more toward rear foot than at original stride plant. this tells me that their axis points are different. ("now, take a stake, drive it through the head and out of the butt and into 6 ft. of concrete" - jack mankin).
> > > >
> > > > another interesting note: watch aaron's hands - they are linear. arm is not kept across the chest.
> > > >
> > > > ray porco
> > >
> > >
> > > sorry for the triple post, thought it wasn't going through.
> > > ray porco
>
> Sorry, posted by accident before I typed anything @#(*&#%(@*
>
> anyway, I suggested the Aaron post because I see him as a rotational hitter, not a linear hitter. His axis is tilted forward but he uses THT, he rotates around his spine, the top hand elbow is tucked into the side as he turns to the ball, he has a circular hand path and he tightens that path at contact (BHT).
> His body is in an odd position because he hit cross handed until he started playing pro ball. Try this. Swing to contact posititon and stop. If you leave your top hand in the same position and then cross the bottom hand over (put it above the top hand on the bat handle) you will have to lean the body forward to keep the barrel in the same contact position. Otherwise you have to push the hands forward (linear). Aaron never corrected his body tilt but he uncrossed his hands.
> IMO he is very rotational. The front arm on both hitters leaves the chest in the second half of the turn, but the top hand elbow stays in and does not push forward.
> I guess I'm not seeing what you are in terms of Aaron being linear.
> Anyone else thing Aaron is either linear or rotational with his upper body mechanics?


major dan,

your right. your not seeing what i'm seeing in terms of aaron being linear.
last attempt:

1. "His axis is tilted forward (i assume you mean toward the pitcher) but he uses THT" - agreed!
BUT, you see aaron as rotational. how? what is your definition of rotational? what is your definition of linear?
you admit the axis is tilted. well here's my last simple experiment and you don't need a mirror. stand with feet shoulder width apart. now bend your torso (top half) to the left. not forward, but to the left until it causes your right heel to lift. is your axis now tilted to the left? is your weight not now shifted to your left foot.
starting position again, and now bend to the right. is your axis now tilted to the right? is your weight not now shifted to your right foot. these are extreme tilts - granted, but, any tilt past center has to be considered a shift. by the way, by axis i'm referring to a "stake driven through the head and out the butt". tom olson, if your listening, i humbly request you do your magic and put your red lines on leebell's clips indicating axis (especially at stride plant and contact)for BOTH hitters. please?

2. "...he rotates around his spine,..." EVERY hitter does that(everyone except a lunger, that is)! is that your definition of a rotational hitter? a hitter that rotates "around his spine"? are your suggesting that a weight shift hitter does not rotate "around his spine"?

3. "...he has a circular hand path..."
look at the frame (aaron's swing) directly preceeding the contact frame. leebell, if your listening in, would/could you please stop action that frame. is aaron's front elbow not bent? you bend your elbow when you throw that top hand at the ball (not keeping it back). aaron's top hand is going to the ball. not circular at all.

for me to understand, and for us to communicate any further, your going to have to put up a dart board.


ray porco