Posted by: ray porco () on Mon May 7 18:09:09 2001

anybody,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > definition of balance can be complicated or simple. is balance "physical equilibrium"? if so, am i balanced with my feet together, with my feet 12 inches apart from each other, with them spread as far as i can stretch? how about balance with regard to time? to achieve a position of balance do i have to hold this position for a determined amount of time - say 10 seconds, or can it be just a mille-second, or perhaps not even discernably recognized as "holding" (just passing through the balance point on you way to the other side).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How about shifting? is it hitting the right key on my keyboard in order to capitalize? (comic relief!) how about changing the place of something? or the position of something? or the direction of something? and then when we combine the two - balance and shift. doesn't THAT complicate things! do we just think of it as weight of one side in excess of another? is it that simple?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AND THEN, balance and shift with respect to the baseball swing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a simple experiment:
> > > > > > round 1 - stand facing a mirror and place your feet tightly together. lift your left leg (or right) and watch the position of your head in relation to the right (balancing) foot?
> > > > > > round 2 - this time start out with your feet 12 inches apart (with your head centrally located - between your feet, that is). lift your left leg (or right) and watch the position of your head in relation to the balancing foot AND the distance the head must travel.
> > > > > > round 3 - the further you spread (with your head centrally located between your feet), the further your head must travel to balance when you lift one of your legs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NOW, what the hell is the point.
> > > > > > i think watching the head in relation to the feet and the distance the head travels, is the key to defining weight shift and balance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > take 3 hitters (all RH). all start with their heads centrally located between their feet, which are spread apart shoulder width. the first, strides forward 6 inches with the left foot (he does not shift his head PRIOR to lifting his stride leg). as his stride leg goes forward, his head must go forward, but this hitter tries to keep his head centrally located between both feet. the second hitter DOES shift his head (over his right leg - balancing in the process) PRIOR to lifting his stride leg. now he steps. his head does not have to shift (or go forward). the third hitter shifts his head OVER his stride leg upon striding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > call me crazy, but i call the third guy a "lunger", the second guy - "rotational", and the first guy - "weight shift". bonds is an example of hitter number two and palmiero is an example of number one. yea, there are varying degrees to each, but watching the head in relation to the feet determines the degree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > just trying to create a model for definition and comparison. feel free to throw darts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ray porco
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray -
> > > > > I agree that #3 would give the appearance of lunging.
> > > > > I have been looking at clips on Setpro to test your theory.
> > > > > [url]http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000152.html[/url] has clips of Ruth, Williams, Mantle, Aaron. I've also looked at Griffey on the Members forum.[there are also some in the regular forum].
> > > > > Griffey is close to a #1 He keeps his head back early on. Williams and Ruth are #2's - head clearly travels with body. Mantle appears to be a #2 but it is a bad angle. Aaron's clip is one where is goes and gets a low outside pitch. He is a #3 in that clip. I've seen him on other clips with better pitches and he is the closest to a #3 of any of the hitters, though Ruth also has a noticable forward bend at the waist entering hip turn. A clip of Hornsby in the members forum shows him to be a #2.
> > > > > The Williams clip is most interesting. He is a #2 - head travels with the body, pretty centered. Then his hips slide forward, putting his head behind his hips, then hip rotation occurs.
> > > > > The Ruth clip is his Happy Gilmore swing. On his last left foot step, he leaves his head over his back foot (#1), then strides, then, amazingly, moves his upper body and head forward again (#3)! during initial hip rotation, only to have the hips turn under him and move forward enough to rebalance him (#2). Strange but I've heard this was a BP swing and he may have been showing off or fooling around (Happy Gilmore in a game???).
> > > > > Think of the implications of Ruth's fun swing - if he was going for maximum show on an easy BP pitch, he added EXTRA forward linear momentum with the Happy Gilmore run up; after getting weight back, he shifted everything (hips to head) forward again; and he delayed the pushback until into the early stages of hip turn - much later than on a normal swing. Its like he was pushing the envelope, cheating a bit to put something extra on a ball that was easier to hit. Of course this is all speculation.
> > > > > Ray, from these clips, I'd say that your model leaves way too much in doubt. It makes Williams ( and most hitters) a weight shifter, Aaron a lunger, Ruth out of control (maybe your theory is right ).
> > > > > Beyond that head and feet aren't indicator of rotational hitting. Any hitter that does not rotate the lower body isn't much of a hitter (show me a major leaguer who locks his hips sideways and doesn't turn them towards the pitcher). As Jack always points out, it is transfer mechanics, shoulder rotation and the relationship of shoulders and arms that really defines rotational hitting, not just if the lower body turns.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm thinking, the longer the stride, the more the head travels. A true #3 is a lunger. A true #1 is a back foot spinner/squish the bug guy. A #2, a balanced hitter.
> > > > > But it is not the feet and head that we should be looking at. Where is the torso going? Do the hips/torso shift forward past the rest of the body before roatating?
> > > > > Rotational - shoulders turn arms/bat into contact. Linear - arms push bat forward away from body into contact. Aaron showed that a #3 can be rotational. Williams a #2 rotational. Griffey a #1 that is rotational. Feet and head are not the indicators.
> > > > > Sorry if that is a big dart.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > major,
> > > >
> > > > man, wife leave you? lose your job? pms'n?
> > > > you ain't sorry you threw that dart, else why'd you throw it. and i don't expect you to be sorry, 'cause i put up the target and asked for it. but it would've been nice after you threw it, you put up a dart board of your own. that's the problem - everybody talking in abstracts with no standard. anyhow......
> > > >
> > > > the videos you referred to aren't exactly what i had in mind. ruth's swing is a joke, and i jokingly referred to it in an earlier post as "happy gilmore hip slide to the max". as far as the other's, the best view to show any weight shift is from the side. here are a few more along the lines i was thinking:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/1000013.html
> > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000315.html
> > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000178.html
> > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000179.html
> > > > http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000231.html
> > > >
> > > > get it on.
> > > >
> > > > ray porco
> > > > p.s. paul, if you'd rather me not reference your site, let me know.
> > > > thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > > by the way. put the point of the mouse-pointer on each batter's ear, before the swing is initiated.
> >
> > by the way. jack, if you would like me to stop referencing other web sites please let me know.
>
> Ray -
> am I coming across like I'm taking something out on you? I appreciate your putting up your dartboard. Its interesting an analyze what you are talking about.
>
> Griffey JR - head comes forward and down in first clip - #1
> in second clip (started after he is down) head comes back
> Big Mac - Head comes forward and down, then back - #1 on both clips
> Palmiero - Head comes forward a lot, doesn't come back (and camera pans) - #1
> Nomar - head comes forward a few inches on a no-stride swing - #1
> Bagwell - head starts back over back foot and stays back, comes up during swing (and head moves backward at the end) - #2
> Mar Johnson - head out by front foot. It comes back some in first clip, a lot in second clip but the swing is a mess compared to the others - as close to a #3 as you'll see in the majors.
> DiMaggio - head comes forward and down, then back - #1
> Greg Vaughn - head comes forward and down quite a bit, doesn't come back. He was really reaching for that ball and still hit a homer (juiced ball? juiced bat?) - #1
> The Sosa clip is from the front- hard to tell anything.
>
> Do you agree or disagree with my numbers?
> Commonality seems to be head forward and down, then moving back.
> What do these two movements mean? Why do they happen? How does this relate to rotational vs linear or rotational vs weight shift swings?
>
> The forward and down is the head following the body forward and down. What's up with the head/shoulders coming back somewhere around contact?
>
>
>

major dan,

question: Do you agree or disagree with my numbers?
answer: only slightly with mcguire.

question: Commonality seems to be head forward and down, then moving back. What do these two movements mean? Why do they happen?
answer: drat! mirror experiment again. stand in front of it with feet shoulder width apart. stride with left foot (RH hitter). if you do not transfer your weight over back foot (HEAD OVER BACK FOOT) "PRIOR" to stride, then your head must go forward. and it will go down because spreading your feet wider causes a decrease in height.

question: What's up with the head/shoulders coming back somewhere around contact?
answer: this is the stide leg extending (straightening). remember, we land with the stride leg flexed (causing decreased height). then heel comes down and knee straightens (increase in height) driving the front hip to rear (the head goes back). an earlier setpro thread coined this phrase when analyzing griffey's swing. they called it "up" (sorry - don't know who to give the credit to).

question: How does this relate to rotational vs linear or rotational vs weight shift swings?
your not asking for much! oh lord, take me downtown, i'm just lookin' for some touch!
sorry, got carried away. can i use one of my life-lines?
answer: condensed version - when/if you stride, your head can remain over your rear foot OR travel over to the front foot OR anywhere in between. when it(your head) travels over the front foot, your have changed the axis point of your rotation. if you keep your head over your rear foot - pure rotation. and if your head is BETWEEN (central to) your front and rear foot [after striding-but, before rotating] then i consider this still rotational (or at least not weight shift). for me to consider a swing - weight shift, the head must be past central location of feet at stide, thus changing axis of rotation.

clear as mud?

ray porco