Posted by: grc () on Sat Apr 28 10:52:47 2001

Thanks very much for joining in.Major Dan's response to you may have seemed a little "terse",but it did result in your articulating some very important and worthwhile information and experience.This is unfortunately often the way of the web since the usual social cues of person to person communication are unavailable.The result is the kind of "just show me info" that this board can benefit from thanks to Jack.It can be irritating due to the nature of the technology.
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> > > I have benefitted from Jack's material with a much smaller epiphany than you have had over the course of your career.I think your approach with respect to minimizing any sigificant role of the back leg and just describing what it does with variuos types of swings is a good approach.Too often overemphasizing or being too consciuos of back leg action justinterferes with power generation and the feel of the swing.I think the action of the back leg may be more important in decelerating the hips and setting a stable platform for the torso to get jumpstarted from then pull itself around than trying to assist hip rotation.When the front heel comes down(assume you don't have to drastically change your timing at this point)The hips are open,the torso hasn't started,but the body is fully stretched and readyto rotate as twist goes up the spine.Since this twist is already going up the spine,it's too late for the backside to add much at this point if sequential momentum transfer is underway.
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> > > One thing that remains confusing is that we are recognizing the importance of torso turn as the power generator,but rarely is shoulder turn recommended.I think this is because the shoulders are not a very sensitive/capable locus of "feel"(kinesthetic awareness),instead it is the hands that are best suited to runnung the show.The tricky part is to teach the hands to demand support from the body the right way automaticall/subconsciously.The lower body actions are slower and can be affected by set-up(stance/weight distribution,etc.)and are easier to have some conscious control over without interfering in the purely automatic portion of the swing you have to burn in with lots of practice.
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> > Hi Tom
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> > I would like to discuss your statement; “I think this is because the shoulders are not a very sensitive/capable locus of "feel"(kinesthetic awareness), instead it is the hands that are best suited to runnung the show. The tricky part is to teach the hands to demand support from the body the right way automaticall/subconsciously” a little further.
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> > I am quite concerned with connotations surrounding the term “hit with your hands” that is used by many coaches. When I ask them to demonstrate what they mean by the term, they will invariably exhibit a very pronounced arm swing. So when they tell a hitter to use his/her hands, they are actually telling him/her to use their arms to accelerate the hands. Dwelling on this type of mechanics has stalled the progress of hitters for decades.
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> > Tom, I know from your next statement (“tricky part”) that you understand the problems of getting the arms involved in accelerating the hand-path. But to most coaches, having the hands “running the show” is synonymous to having the arms "running the show." --- The most important voluntary force supplied by the hands/arms is to apply top-hand-torque at initiation. From that point on, the trajectories of the hands/arms is mainly determined by the forces supplied from shoulder rotation and the bat’s reaction to those forces.
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> > Jack Mankin
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> Jack,you are right to emphasize this danger of the hands working by getting the arms overinvolved.Pulling the bottom hand back to promote hooking is pretty safe as it encourages tightening the curve of the handpath.Other hand cues can be counterproductive.That is what I meant by "tricky" and that is an understatement.Melvin's likening of it to a cruel joke may be closer to the reality.I am also coming somewhat from the golf angle where it is a little safer to use hand cues given the better swing radius control you have with arms extended before the swing and maintained that way.In spite of the reality of the importance of shoulder rotation,it is hard for me to find useful instructions for kids that include the shoulders as part of a swing thought.Certainly it is a key to video analysis.
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> I have had a similar concern, but not as dangerous, about advising "throwing the bathead".Transfer mechanics are different for throwing and hitting as you have demonstrated.We have to realize these cues are all double edged swords and it is probably better to be silent than risk adding to the confusion when we instruct-less is more.
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>jack...i think this discussion boils down to your theory that nothing below the shoulders is relevant unless it contributes to shoulder rotation.....i don't necessairily think the theory is wrong, but i do think it could use some clarification....im happen to believe in the kinetic chain theory ( and i understand that you do not)....hips>shoulders>arms>hands, etc...transfer of energy from the bottom up....if you do not believe in the kinetic chain, then it would seem that you feel the only purpose of the hips, if any is it's possible contribution to shoulder rotation.....are you suggesting that a hitter wants good "shoulder speed" , possibly assisted by the hips?....that would be just as bad as coaches who look for "hand speed" or "hip speed"....i don't think at all that you are advocating "shoulder speed".....but to you, what purpose does good hip rotation serve if you don't believe it eventually CONTRIBUTES ENERGY TO THE SHOULDERS ?.....and i can turn my shoulders quite quickly without great hip rotation......again, this is probably a case where i am simply misunderstand your position and i would appreciate clarification........respectfully, grc....p.s....down below under squashing the bug...again...major dan made some good points about the high jumper...i hope you will respond to that post as well....grc.....