Posted by: grc () on Wed Apr 25 18:27:54 2001

>>> I understand that you do not think that weight shift and rotation are incompatible. Neither do I. I think we both agree that you don't do both at the same time - shift then rotate, or just rotate, but no shifting during rotation (moving axis - either lunging or back foot sitting and spinning).
> I see the point you are making. I can't answer either of your questions with certainty. I need to look at some more clips to see if I can find examples of hitters using no weight shift. Can you give examples of power hitters with no weight shift?
> Shooting from the hip (sorry, I couldn't help myself), I would say that there is more energy available to the body to convert to rotational/angular momentum with a weight shift/hip slide than without one. Theoretically, a player with very strong, very quick legs could torque them from a standstill and generate considerable power / batspeed. It is not inconceivable for a Bagwell-type player to hit a ball 450'. But I think it would be harder and less efficient to do that.
> As far as golf, I am not a golfer and haven't taken lessons. Maybe its folklore, but the Happy Gilmore style does seem to produce more power. Not too good on the accuracy or consistency of contact however. And given the nature of the long, light golf club and the consistency and aim requirements of golf, players may get the best output (consistency with much but not all possible power) from a stable axis and a long swing radius.
> The nature of a baseball swing, due to reaction time, is to generate batspeed quickly while seeking a moving target collision. The pre-powering of the hip torquing motion with a hip slide/weight shift is non-committal and loosely coupled with the actual swing timing, i.e., you can use the same shift and hit a fastball, changeup, high pitch, low pitch, inside, outside, etc.
> Having the body 'loaded' with energy when the quick swing motions begin should make it easier to torque the hips, allowing for faster bat acceleration with less brute force muscling and the accompanying tension involved in forcing/powering/exploding.
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> I guess, to sum up, I think many or most players use weight shift/hip slide as a tool to generate the rotation you advocate. While not, perhaps, essential, it is very common even among the elite hitters. My guess is that done correctly it is more optimal than a no shift swing. I am beginning to think of this hip motion (torso and thighs) as the key power producer - the engine that drives the rotation, if done correctly.
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> You said "Many good hitters (stride or no-stride) set their axis angle and come to full balance (linear momentum at rest) and use both legs to generate rotate around a stationary axis."
> Help me understand your thinking here. Are you saying there are players who stride and then have no linear momentum at rotation time? Is this the equivalent of the "stepping onto thin ice" cue? Is this balance static (dead stop) or dynamic? Can you point me at a player example of this? <<<
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> Hi Major Dan
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> This is the type of discussion I envisioned when I added the discussion board to the site. Major Dan, I find your positions well thought out and persuasive. We will probably find that the major differences in our positions are more a matter definition than of substance. This is not only true for you and I, but the same can be said for many that come to the site. Frank and open-minded discussions can help provide clarity to all.
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> One of the problems I have noticed with this discussion is a clear definition of when the swing starts. Grc seems to be saying the swing starts when the batter starts his stride. Others may think it starts at foot-plant. My definition is that the swing starts when the hands are accelerated by shoulder rotation. This is when the batter is pretty much committed to the swing. I consider the stride, the slide and some opening of the hips to be part of preparing the launch position.
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> So, when I am asked if the hips slide forward during the swing, my answer is – not if the batter rotates around a stationary axis. There is some forward movement of the hips if the batter takes a more aggressive stride and has a firm front leg at foot-plant. This causes the hips to rotate around the front leg (back to center) instead of the spine. It is difficult to complete shoulder rotation through contact with this mechanic. -- I think one of the keys to developing great bat speed is to have a lot of flex in the lead knee at foot plant.
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> I would agree with you, Major Dan that most (but not all) good hitters have their hips sliding forward right up to where rotation begins. There is a very fine line between a batter coming to full balance (hip and axis slide have stopped) or continuing to slide until rotation starts. A few years ago when I was charting swings, Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. were my Poster Boys for batters who came to full balance 1 or 2 video frames before rotation. I will tape a few games and see if I can find a few examples in this era.
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> I still think most coaches place far too much importance on the mechanics of hip rotation as compared to stressing shoulder rotation. Remember, nothing below the armpits has a connection to the bat – only the shoulders have that link. Lower body mechanics can only effect bat speed by how much they contribute to shoulder rotation.
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> One last thought – I have often pondered why it would be more efficient to push off with the back leg and slide the hips forward and then convert some of that momentum into hip rotation. Why is that more efficient than just using the push off to turn the hips from the get-go. --- Just wondering.
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> Jack Mankin
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>hi jack........3 back-to-back-to back posts by major dan, you and tom certainly provides a lot of food for thought...i would like to comment on your post and tom’s seperately so as to try minimizing my sometimes-disorganized train of thought........(1) i certainly don’t think the swing starts with the stride....the swing starts a split-second after launch position....for me. Launch position is foot plant, although i do recall that at setpro there was a lot of interesting discussion about where exactly launch position....i remember there were some who would do what you seem to do and that is to add a little bit of hip slide and hip opening to the launch position.............(2) i can now understand your position regarding rotational mechanics precluding weight shift mechanics.......you seem to agree that there is hip and axis slide PRIOR TO THE SWING, but that ONCE THE SWING STARTS there should be NO FURTHER forward movement........to paraphrase major dan, (i hope I’m not misinterpreting him), you first stride (weightshift) and then swing (rotate).............and i agree with this for a purely rotational swing, which in my opinion will be reserved for the inside pitch..........you see, i think mike schmidt has done an excellent analysis of weightshift vs. rotation DEPENDING ON THE LOCATION OF THE PITCH!!!!.....schmidt sees some forward body movement after the swing has begun when the pitch is outside and sees less rotation , and of course less or no forward body movement after the swing has begun on an inside pitch.....and even though he had help from a ghostwriter (rob ellis?), schmidt seems to be the only ex-major leaguer to address this issue, and ghostwriter or not, i don’t think he would endorse something he had not actually experienced himself..........(3).....jack, you wondered why it would not be more efficient to just ” push off to turn the hips from the get-go “, and presumably just eliminate the forward hip slide.....i think in part the hip slide is basic physics (the stride sets the body in a forward motion) but also in part i think it is , intentionally or not a pitch adjustment period (start the stride a little too soon & you have more hip slide then if you start it a little later)........(4) jack, you seem to place a lot of importance on the bent front leg....i have learned from you and others why this is important but i would like to add something to the bent front leg theory.....schmidt says that once you go into rotational mechanics (which means an inside pitch), the front leg will straighten up (consistent with your theory)........BUT........on an outside pitch, two things will happen......(a) there will be some forward hip slide after the swing has begun and (b) the bent front leg will not straighten nearly as quick (and perhaps not as much).............and although schmidt didn’t address this issue, i think anytime you get fooled by a pitch (the pitch being slower than you had anticipated ), you will see a lot of hip slide and non-straightening-of the bent-front-leg.......................respectfully, grc..................