Posted by: rql () on Sat Apr 7 20:01:58 2001

Hi DC & Dick
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> Your questions (posted in March) regarding the bat’s pivot point deserve a reply. The reason I did not address them at the time is because I do not think it is helpful to discuss to many important topics in the same thread. We were discussing the role of the arms in the swing and I didn’t want the theme of the message to be distracted by other topics. --- So I will now address them below.
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> >>> Secondly, are you sure the pivot point is between the two hands? If that were the case, I would never be able to swing with only my lead arm. I took a whiffle-ball bat, held my lead HAND and arm stationary, then created angular displacement by moving thru the range of my wrist. My top-hand wasn't on the bat to help create angular displacement. What was my lead hand pivoting around if I didn't have the top hand on the bat to create opposing torque forces? Thanks for helping to clarify these items for me. DC <<<
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> Hi DC
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> DC, you can apply torque to the bat while swinging it with just one hand. The muscles in the forearm cause the wrist to turn. As the wrist turns, the small-finger-side of the hand is pulling inward as the thumb-side is turning out. So once again there was forces being applied from opposing directions – torque. The pivot point in this case would be in the center of the wrist.
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> It would seem logical, that if a fair amount torque could be applied with just one wrist, then a good deal of torque could be applied with both wrists. But just the opposite is true, the wrists can apply very little torque (or snap) to the bat when held in both hands. --- When just one hand is on the bat, the hand is free to rotate about a point in the wrist. But, when both hands hold the bat, each hand wants to rotate around a point in its own wrist. Not having a common point of rotation results in the wrists having very limited movement with little torque supplied. --- You can check this out for yourself – grip the bat and place both elbows on a table – note the limited range of wrist movement when the push-pull movement of the forearms is limited.
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> So as I have stated before; what we usually refer to as “snapping the wrist”, is actually the push-pull action of the forearms – the wrist remain fairly straight.
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> >>>"Secondly, are you sure the pivot point is between the two hands?"
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> Jack I may have missed it, but have you answered that question?
> I'm wondering if you consider the no contribution to bat speed is offerd by rotation about the lead wrist? Dick Anthony <<<
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> Hi Dick
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> The location of the pivot point depends on the swing mechanics used. In a backside dominant (more linear) swing, the back-arm is always pushing the top hand around a slower moving bottom hand. So, with these mechanics the bat’s pivot point would be closer to the lead hand. But this produces a longer hand-path and much of the bat speed is developed after passing the contact point.
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> With the better hitters, the pivot point progresses from lead-hand at initiation to the back-hand at contact. ---While the batter is applying top-hand-torque at initiation, the top-hand is pulling the bat-head (back toward the catcher) around a more stationary lead-hand (pivot point closer to the lead-hand). --- During the middle part of the swing, the push-pull of the arms is more equal (pivot point more between the hands). --- Coming into contact, the pulling back of the lead shoulder causes the lead-hand to pull the knob of the bat around a more stationary back-hand (pivot point closer to the back-hand).
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> The “hook effect” in the hand-path occurs as the lead shoulder pulls the bottom-hand back toward the catcher (bottom-hand-torque). --- Driving the top-hand around the lead-hand results in a larger arc radius of the hand-path (no hook effect).
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> Jack Mankin
> Jack,Just some comments and observations from this thread.The wrist thing I tried I thought I had good movement in my wrist and could snap the bat,,the idea of the torque of 1 hand and the little finger and thumb I agree with but I can do the same with 2,if my hands are in front of me and the barrel is pointed at the catcher I can snap my wrists and point it at the pitcher,that's 180degrees.My long ago idea of both hands feeling like one was derived from the little finger of each hand pulling back while the thumbs of each hand were driving forward.Though the bottom forearm is pulling and top one is pushing,the energy being transmitted into the hands make them seem as one at least to me.They are both making the same motion smoothly and equally might be a better way to describe it even into the follow thru or V position.Lastly an area I have been thinking of lately on this line ,I have always thought your line of hitting was that all the energy went from lower mechanics to upp er shoulder rotation supplying all the energy and it was transferred to the bat through the arms and wrists.I've never remembered hearing the idea of pull/push from the forearms,only the shoulders pull/push.Hear is my thought,so much is talked about the wrists,hands,forearms.Williams talks of strengthening them,palmeiro says clear the hips and throw the hands,it was either Schmidt or Rose who once told me 100% hands and 85% shoulders,and so much is talked about guys having quick hands.I figure they can't all be so far off in their thinking,yet I see the impact of proper shoulder rotation.So I was wondering could the shoulder rotation not only get alot of its power from the lower body rotation 1st but also gain speed from the forearms and hands creating speed from the pull push they are doing.It seems like they help accelerate the shoulder rotation as long as they stay properly connected and would make sense of alot, at least to me,of what many of the great hitters have described.Their focus is on the hands and they know how to keep them connected to the shoulders but this may help accelerate the shoulders keeping them ahead of the hands,and if they think shoulders it may make the hands drag behind.I'm just trying to make sense of what I feel and what I've been taught and tie them in with your rotation sequence.RQL