Posted by: Jim (jwelborn@lexcominc.net) on Thu Nov 17 20:40:29 2005

> >>> "but they all will have their hands (especially the top-hand) coming toward the back-shoulder as they initiate the swing. "
>
> The initiate the swing IMO, is separate from the load, which you seem to be describing. The transfer of weight to the backside is a separate entity then the actual swing of the bat.
>
> I think the position that a hitter gets into prior to the actual swing of the bat is extremely telling and important...watch big league guys and you will see that where a hitter starts is extremely varied, compare that to where a hitter ends up the spilt second prior to starting the initiation of their swing and you will see that they are all in about the same spot and position. <<<
>
> Hi Scott
>
> If I correctly understand your post, I think we are in agreement. The ‘load’ is part of a batter’s pre-launch movement and can be thought of as separate from the initiation of the swing. I would also agree that big league guys have extremely varied styles in how they prepare their launch positions and yet exhibit basically the same mechanics to contact.
>
> I would appreciate your thoughts on the post below that I wrote on this topic.
>
> Jack Mankin
> ##
>
> Re: Re: Re: Re: Dr. Chambers
>
> Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com) on Mon Aug 4 02:08:44 2003
>
> Hi Larry
>
> Below is a post from the archives that may add to the discussion
>
> Jack Mankin
>
> ##
> Style vs Absolute
> Posted by: Jack Mankin (MrBatspeed@aol.com on Thu Feb 13 16:04:42 2003
>
> Mikeyd, you stated, -- “I know from watching videos and looking at pictures, Jack, that there is more than one "right" way to swing the bat - and your style is not a cure all and has some definite limitations too.” -- I agree with you that good hitters exhibit many different styles in how they prepare for the swing. As a hitter takes his stance in the box, some will (as you pointed out) have their hands away from their body – some close to the shoulder. Some will have their hands high like A-Rod – some low like Bonds. Some good hitters will stand tall while others like to squat. Some will take longer strides – some soft or no-stride. These are all matters of a batters individual style and my work has not taken a position on whether or not one style has an advantage over another.
>
> But once the batter has completed his preparation for the swing and brought the bat to the launch position (is now in the plane of the swing), the “style” time is over. And once the swing is fully initiated, the swing mechanics exhibited by the best hitters are all basically the same (viewed frame-by-frame). The bat speed developed by all swings will be governed by the same mechanical principles. Defining those mechanical principles common to all great hitter’s swings was what my study concentrated on. --- The purpose of all batting mechanics is to apply forces to the bat that will gain maximum acceleration of the bat-head into a predictable arc around toward contact. – Note: Since the purpose of batting mechanics is to accelerate the bat-head, the terms I defined, CHP, BHT and THT are to identify forces acting on the bat.
>
> Other than gravity, the two (and only two) forces acting on the bat that cause the bat-head to accelerate into its arc is ‘torque’ (push/pull action supplied through the hands) and transfer of the body’s rotational energy via a ‘circular hand-path’ (CHP). The batter does not have a choice of whether or not to use these forces. The bat speed attained, regardless of who he or she is, baseball or softball, light or heavy bat, will be governed by the quality of the CHP and how much torque energy was supplied to the bat during the swing by the batter’s transfer mechanics.
>
> Regardless of the length of the batter’s stride (style), all good hitters will rotate around a stationary axis to generate a quality CHP. -- Regardless of where a great hitter has his hands in his stance (style), his hands will be at the back-shoulder at initiation. I call this “hiding the hands from the pitcher”. -- In order to generate a quality CHP, he will keep the hands back and allow rotation to propel their first movement perpendicular to (not parallel with) the flight of the incoming ball. – All great hitters will have their elbow at their side as they rotate. – All great hitters will have the lead shoulder pulling back toward the catcher at contact (hook in the hand-path). – Those are not style. Those are absolute principles for maximizing bat speed and generating a predicable swing plane .
>
> As a great hitter initiates his swing, the bat-head’s first movement is to arc back toward the catcher before his rotation turns and directs his energy around toward contact. It should be obvious that the top-hand could not be pushing ‘forward’ while the bat-head is arcing ‘backward’. Since shoulder rotation has just begun, the force acting on the bat that causes the bat-head to arc back toward the catcher is “torque.” And since the top-hand is moving back with the bat while the bottom-hand is more stationary, I termed this mechanic “Top-Hand Torque.”
>
> I think the defining difference between the great hitters and all the rest takes place at (or just before) initiation. Great hitters are pulling back with the top-hand at initiation – all the rest are pushing it forward. --- When a batter pushes the top-hand forward at initiation (99 % of batters), instead of the bat-head arcing back toward the catcher, it slides over and trails behind the hands. --- So THT is not style. It is an absolute for maximizing the torque factor before and during the swing.
>
> Mikeyd, great hitters find an elevated back-elbow a more powerful position to apply THT than starting with it low or in the slot.
>
> Jack Mankin


Jack,

You speak of the first movement of the hands being a circular path away from the pitcher as the swing is being initiated. This seems to be what we refer to as upper body twisting (away from the pitcher) during the negative move. This movement can be detected in our pro clips among about 75% of the players. Some pros twist more than others, however even the most radical twist is still what I would term as very slight.

Our experience is that excessive twisting among young players would be when the act of twisting the upper body causes the head to rotate (toward the catcher), making the back eye loose sight of the ball thus killing depth perception. Since this movement begins as the pitcher is releasing the ball, good depth perception during this time is essential.

The pros who exhibit the negative twist do not twist enough to cause this detrimental head movement. What I am seeing in the pros is twist that causes the hands to move in very small arc that would be no more than two or three inches depending their location when the negative move begins.

Have you been able to quantify the optimum amount of negative upper body twist that is desirable?

Jim